(24/10/2012 15:27)507009 Wrote: [ -> ] (24/10/2012 15:16)First Class Wrote: [ -> ]Crime in Kirkby is the ONLY reason the Wigan line doesn't get an evening service. Firstly because the line was constantly being vandalised, secondly because the traincrew were being abused. Everytime it is looked into, the BCR is badly affected because of the reputation of Kirkby. The unions kicked off about 2 years ago because of staff abuse/drug problems/obstructions on track. BTP are well aware that this is a key line for major drug dealing, (Merseyside into Lancashire/Greater Manchester).
There are other bad areas, but as it is a transport forum, it is fair to say that, if Kirkby had a better reputation, that it occasionally lives up to, transport as a whole would probably be better. Kirkby gave Stagecoach the ammunition to claim vandalism as a key reason for single deck operation.
Tower Hill/Northwood is a very deprived area, recognised by the EU as such, and it is natural that crime rates are often fairly high there as a result.
Crime is the ONLY reason? I don't believe that for a second. If your claim is true and it is not in fact due to lack of demand, can you please explain why the line doesn't get a Sunday service as well? Do the local pond life choose Sundays as a national day of vandalism as well? I find your claims extremely questionable. Kirkby has improved a lot as a town over recent years, and certainly the behaviour on Merseyrail trains is fine from considerably regular use myself.
If I'm not mistaken, Stagecoach do in fact still operate into Tower Hill of a night, so hardly suggests it is the "no-go" zone you infer that it is. Just from reading local news, I don't regularly hear of serious crimes from Kirkby being reported, or (without wanting to sound too malevolent) not to the extent of the likes of Norris Green, Croxteth and Stockbridge Village anyway. A further interesting comparison would be by seeing what the vandalism levels are on the 20/21 branded Enviro300s and compare them with other branded buses, i.e. the 10 and 14 examples. I might even do it myself, just to gauge if Tower Hill really is still that bad.
By the way, the other area on Merseyside recognised by the EU as being "very deprived" was Birkenhead. And does that get an evening service? Yes, it certainly does.
Yes stagecoach still do run into Towerhill at night, as for crime there was one gun crime a few months back but not like other areas, One thing I will say for Kirkby is that when I left my last house there I had less trouble in 6 years (if any) than I did in two years of living in Bootle in my previous house. Good point about the Wigan line train regarding Sunday.
Kirkby-Wigan doesn't get a Sunday service due to ROTR AND ROTP limiting possession opportunities and the fact the signallers for Rainford token cannot be contractually made to work a Sunday.
The BCR studies show a strong ratio for a weekday evening hourly service, but as I've said previously, the First North Western had serious concerns over ASB and more recently, the unions still kick off everytime it is mentioned.
I have personally seen people on the track during the day at Kirkby and suffered from a couple of trains being cancelled due to issues of ASB between Rainford and Kirkby. Whilst not tar the whole area the line does get abused with ASB and so do the buses, just the latter not to the extent now. In the 80s the trains used to regularly get bricked now the odd occurrence is a train being stoned but in a age of Health and Safety all this would go against anything being planned.
The whole Sunday point is not actually as good a point as you would think first hand. The Kirkby train runs as normal from Victoria of a night but simply terminate at Wigan, however on a Sunday that train does not run at all from Victoria. Therefore my point is on a weeknight it is evident that between Wigan and Kirkby there are some issues, were as on a Sunday there is evidently different issues.
Back on topic though, Stagecoach say vandalism is the reason why they won't operate deckers in Kirkby, yet they continuously invest in brand spanking new single deckers. Kind of a contradiction wouldn't you say? If it is a case of the upper deck being trashed of a night why not shut them off like Arriva used to do on their Palentines?
I hardly think the running of a train between Manchester Victoria and Wigan at night is relevant. It simply indicates there is demand for a service between here on weekdays but not of a Sunday, presumably with trains to Southport and other destinations filling the void here. The Ormskirk - Preston service also lacks an evening and Sunday service, but like the Kirkby line, it is obviously due to lack of patronage. Trains suffer from glass smashings and vandalism across the country. It certainly isn't an issue limited to (or significantly worse in) Tower Hill.
Furthermore, if the problems are so bad here, why does Merseytravel want to extend the railway from Kirkby station itself in the Westvale area of the town to a new station at Headbolt Lane, one of Tower Hill's major thoroughfares? It certainly doesn't seem likely the EMU service would be curtailed at Westvale during the evenings.
It's not a contradiction to me. At least they have invested in all fairness. New buses are generally not fitted with staircase doors and I don't think it is even an optional feature with the majority of current products either.
Stagecoach still seem to think that Kirkby is good bus operating country , Stagecoach Merseyside only gets second hand double deckers when they become available because there isnt a case financially for brand new vehicles just yet .
When Merseyrail eventually run out to Headbolt Lane it will be interesting to see what promotions Stagecoach use to keep passengers using the bus services rather than use rail.
That is were you are wrong about the Southport line filling in. The Southport line operates via Bolton to Manchester. Until recently on a Sunday the areas of Daisy Hill, Atherton etc had no Sunday train service so there is evidently other reasons here. As for Merseyrail wanting to expand that could be because no service operates there of a night and Sunday and they want to fill in. Also what is stopping Merseyrail from doing? Afterall it has been mooted for decades now and we still don't see no plans - cash? We have had the credit boom in the time they have been talking about it when the EU were throwing cash at anything.
I have also seen recent deckers with doors on them. I can't remember were but they were with Arriva, and I cannot see it being to hard to fit, after all they can convert buses from duel doors to single, doors on the stairs can't be any harder.
Well, I'm no expert on trains from Wigan as you can tell, but it smacks to me that the evening service between Wigan and Manchester is due to sufficient patronage. This isn't the case on the Kirkby - Wigan section. It is a sure bet that Headbolt Lane is to improve connections in the Tower Hill area and provide an evening and Sunday service to Liverpool, surely a more attractive proposition to the locals than Wigan or Manchester. My point is that the extension is over the section of track that is supposedly so badly vandalised and regularly attacked that trains can't operate by night. If it's so bad, why is it proposed to extend the Kirkby line to Tower Hill and operate at night?
Were there many problems upstairs during the days of Titans on the 20? I can't remember issues being reported locally. Buses that travel through poorer areas are liable to get vandalised, but I'm sure if they had screens upstairs that would at least reduce the level of it. Again, it would be worth seeing what the 20/21-branded Enviro300s look like compared with other routes.
Well if there was no vandalism upstairs on the Titans what the hell are Stagecoach talking about when they say vandalism is why they won't buy deckers? That is my point are Stagecoach just hiding behind vandalism when maybe the area is no worse than other areas. Like I said before if vandalism was so bad why would that route continuously get new buses.
They do get deckers when there available , just not brand new ones .
Vandalism is the worst possible excuse when Manchester get a seemingly never ending supply of deckers which are readily vandalised, even the newest examples.