(09/07/2014 12:12)Raawwwrrr! Wrote: [ -> ]Laird Street only makes the money it does because it's one of the most expensive depots in the merseyside area. A trip on the 464 half the journey can cost £3.50 for a single, and the child fare is almost as bad. Students allegedly don't exist on the Wirral either, and are charged full adult fare accordingly. A single fare through the tunnel is almost the price of a day ticket. Also they're the only operator bar independents that service tourist destination New Brighton and Wallsey.
Speke likewise has no competition anymore since stagecoach cut their dead milage and axed most of the Aintree based routes to Speke, Netherley, Halewood and Garston. They're the only operator bar HTL to serve the Airport, industrial parks, Hope Childwall Campus, Uni of Liverpool and walking distance to LJMU and Hope's city centre campuses. With the exception of the QBP 82/86, all services from Netherley, Halewood, Airport, Speke, Woolton and everywhere between to the City centre are only operated by Arriva.
Just shows that deregulation has near enough gone full circle Public Monopoly to Private Monopoly via some sort of competition in between .
Wasn't the Stagecoach pull out of Speke in a kind of arrangement with Arriva that Arriva wouldn't go to Kirkby.
(09/07/2014 12:12)Raawwwrrr! Wrote: [ -> ]Laird Street only makes the money it does because it's one of the most expensive depots in the merseyside area. A trip on the 464 half the journey can cost £3.50 for a single, and the child fare is almost as bad. Students allegedly don't exist on the Wirral either, and are charged full adult fare accordingly. A single fare through the tunnel is almost the price of a day ticket. Also they're the only operator bar independents that service tourist destination New Brighton and Wallsey.
Speke likewise has no competition anymore since stagecoach cut their dead milage and axed most of the Aintree based routes to Speke, Netherley, Halewood and Garston. They're the only operator bar HTL to serve the Airport, industrial parks, Hope Childwall Campus, Uni of Liverpool and walking distance to LJMU and Hope's city centre campuses. With the exception of the QBP 82/86, all services from Netherley, Halewood, Airport, Speke, Woolton and everywhere between to the City centre are only operated by Arriva.
Yes a single fare thru the tunnel is nearly the price of a day saver,so how are you getting back the other way,swim the river !, most people using those services are on day,weekly or even monthly tickets,Cost per journey when you use one is dramatically cut and the days of buses held together with gaffer tape and offering a pound to town are over, those newer buses operated in South Liverpool and on cross river didn`t come free they have to be paid for and the revenue is there on those services.Bus Companies don`t get the huge grants given out to the likes of Metrolink they have to survive and renew fleet from income.
(09/07/2014 12:28)FC Pictures Wrote: [ -> ]Yes a single fare thru the tunnel is nearly the price of a day saver,so how are you getting back the other way,swim the river !, most people using those services are on day,weekly or even monthly tickets
The day tickets are bad enough at £5, ridiculously costing more than an all-zone Saveaway which would allow you to use the trains and ferries as well as all bus services within the region. The train is far cheaper for a Wallasey - Liverpool return journey at £3.40. Quite simply, a £5 return journey on the bus is appalling value.
Returning to St Helens, I doubt anti-social behaviour is a significant factor in their decision making. After all, they regularly use the VLW deckers on the 10/10A and previously had Bootle's 4415 on loan. This suggests they are/have been seriously considering an upgrade to deckers on the route and, as a regular user, I can confirm this definitely needs to happen. There are serious capacity problems on the route and this has been the case for years. Even back in the dark days of B10Bs, Flytes, Paladins and Ultralows plying the route, the overcrowding was serious.
(09/07/2014 13:55)507009 Wrote: [ -> ]The day tickets are bad enough at £5, ridiculously costing more than an all-zone Saveaway which would allow you to use the trains and ferries as well as all bus services within the region. The train is far cheaper for a Wallasey - Liverpool return journey at £3.40. Quite simply, a £5 return journey on the bus is appalling value.
Returning to St Helens, I doubt anti-social behaviour is a significant factor in their decision making. After all, they regularly use the VLW deckers on the 10/10A and previously had Bootle's 4415 on loan. This suggests they are/have been seriously considering an upgrade to deckers on the route and, as a regular user, I can confirm this definitely needs to happen. There are serious capacity problems on the route and this has been the case for years. Even back in the dark days of B10Bs, Flytes, Paladins and Ultralows plying the route, the overcrowding was serious.
Well that price can be argued a few ways, Arriva`s is valid in the whole of the north west,the trains don`t go where the 432/433/437 operate at all,they go a different route.
Deckers on the 10/10A is nonesense, not needed, using the odd VLW which St Helens are unlikely to be keeping now they have no schools to do doesn`t justify the cost of a fleet of deckers ,overcrowding is minimal,i dont know what magic hat you think the 5 million quid for new deckers is coming from,when they are not needed.
The £5 for a NW dayrider really is quite good but only as long as you are not just making one journey each way, however the saveway is better value if you are staying within the boundaries of where it allows as you do have more choice of bus services as well as they trains & ferries. But £5 poor value, well no not really.
With regards to the decker issue on 10/A I'm not sure that a whole fleet is needed as buses are regular enough and there are plenty of them. Maybe at busier times a decker or two could be utilised but as a whole I'm just not sure. I do live along the route so i'm not going off half-cocked on this one. Ultimately, somebody else will have a different opinion and that is up to them, we don't all have to agree.
(09/07/2014 13:55)507009 Wrote: [ -> ]Returning to St Helens, I doubt anti-social behaviour is a significant factor in their decision making. After all, they regularly use the VLW deckers on the 10/10A and previously had Bootle's 4415 on loan. This suggests they are/have been seriously considering an upgrade to deckers on the route and, as a regular user, I can confirm this definitely needs to happen. There are serious capacity problems on the route and this has been the case for years. Even back in the dark days of B10Bs, Flytes, Paladins and Ultralows plying the route, the overcrowding was serious.
I fully agree with your post mate.
Like you not really convinced ASBO is the main/only reason for no deckers on the 10/10A (experienced much worse in other city regions) and its most likely down to profitability and SH's profitability compared to that of LS or Speke. However it's not far fetched to say I've seen/used 10's packed to the rafters with standing loads and if any route on Merseyside has a case for deckers the 10/10A has it. It doesn't surprise me that this probably won't happen but if they're not going to upgrade to deckers for 10/10A SH will need more full size stuff like Commanders/Pulsars to stop stuff like Solo's creeping on there.
Maybe SH management could put a case with Arriva to switch 2002-07 midi sized vehicles like Cadets with Arriva the Shires full sized singles like Scania Solars which when I've seen them look very under utilised in that region and would be a much better option for Merseyside. Another option could be for Stagecoach to withdraw their 10C and introduce the 274/275 route that used to operate pre the Arriva takeover of MTL. From what I can remember this route did seem fairly well used and it would also reduce some of the overcrowding on both the Prescot Road and West Derby Road corridor/give Stagecoach a presence on West Derby Road too.
Suspending the bus lanes was a stupid idea and maybe this has resulted in Arriva/Stagecoach putting Liverpool/Merseyside to the back of the queue for re-investment. However SH does need approx 30 newer vehicles and an upgrade to deckers for 10/10A ideally achieves this.
(09/07/2014 14:27)MPTE1955 Wrote: [ -> ]With regards to the decker issue on 10/A I'm not sure that a whole fleet is needed as buses are regular enough and there are plenty of them. Maybe at busier times a decker or two could be utilised but as a whole I'm just not sure. I do live along the route so i'm not going off half-cocked on this one. Ultimately, somebody else will have a different opinion and that is up to them, we don't all have to agree.
Very true mate. I'm not going to criticise anyone who sees this differently - the good thing about the forum! I do reckon the 'doughnutting' problem needs solving on there for sure but again the suspension of the bus lanes has made this a million times worse especially coming in/out of the city centre from London Road to Dale Street.
(09/07/2014 14:13)FC Pictures Wrote: [ -> ]Deckers on the 10/10A is nonesense, not needed, using the odd VLW which St Helens are unlikely to be keeping now they have no schools to do doesn`t justify the cost of a fleet of deckers ,overcrowding is minimal,i dont know what magic hat you think the 5 million quid for new deckers is coming from,when they are not needed.
I have lived on the route for several years and have used the route every day in recent years. It is wrong to suggest that overcrowding is 'minimal'. It's a lot worse than that. I know because of the frequency with which I use the route. I'd argue this route should have been upgraded with deckers ahead of the 79 if anything.
As for the ticketing issue, £5 certainly is poor value compared with a similar journey time on the train for a return journey. It's only worthwhile if you're continuing your journey elsewhere within the North West. It would make a lot more sense if a more reasonably priced return fare was offered on the Cross-River services. I know a few people in Wallasey who have simply been priced out of using the 432/433 due to the high fares. So, to sum up, good for longer journeys within the North West, poor for a simple return journey. For the train (a comfortable, quiet, much more reliable train service) to be £1.60 cheaper is incredible.
Well i can tell you now that st helens is a highly profitable depot and am led to believe its only 3%-4% less profitable than speke and st helens only as 2 services that serve the city centre so considering this st helens are lacking on new buses due to the fact that not all of its services serve the city centre.
St Helens should be profitable as apart from Stagecoach on 10A, 600 (between Lowton & Leigh on 34) and Network Warrington on Winwick Road, they have no competition as I don't think any of Hattons routes take anything off Arriva.