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(29/10/2018 20:04)Brickmill Wrote: [ -> ]Congratulations, you have just been promoted to Stagecoach CEO! Why would car-less passengers be maintained in a "stable" system - whatever that means?

Clearly, we have fundamentally opposing ideas both politically and ethically, so there is no point in me even trying to argue the point.

Clearly the issue of attracting growth is getting off topic but I pose this question: How is it that, John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor feels perfectly at ease when admitting that he tripped up having just got off a bus in London last week when, outside of the capital, young people on the minimum wage aspire to owning a car as soon as they can afford one?

I think one of the biggest issues now is buses don't all suit shift times. Back 10 years ago, most shops would open and close at a similar time and would be located in town centres. Now, all shops open/close at different times and are more spread out into out of town retail parks. The same can be said for offices, they are becoming more spread out and out more out of town with more varying shift times. There is also a lot more people going into 'industrial' jobs like warehouses which work to many different shifts. For buses to suit all the many shift times that are now around, you need 24/7 buses which simply isnt viable. People have to use cars as the buses simply don't get them to work for the shift times. I know this isn't Manchester but Deeside Industrial Estate has most shifts running 6-2, 2-10, 10-6. All of the subsidised buses to local areas except the short distance shuttles are non existent at these times.

Combine the lack of buses at work times to the somewhat high prices. Stagecoach prices seem reasonable but we all know not all companies are the same and have very high prices charging £3 for a journey 3 minutes up the road.

I think the way to get more people on buses is to try and get buses to link with main industrial shift times and office times. Until that is done, people will stop using buses to get to/from work. Once someone has a weekly ticket though for travelling to/from work, when it comes to a shopping trip, if a bus is available, they are more likely to use it as they have the ticket already so it is essentially free.
A scheme like Nottingham would be good where employers are charged if they provide so many parking spaces for employers and then reinvest that money into the local buses.

(29/10/2018 21:16)iMarkeh Wrote: [ -> ]I think one of the biggest issues now is buses don't all suit shift times. There is also a lot more people going into 'industrial' jobs like warehouses which work to many different shifts. People have to use cars as the buses simply don't get them to work for the shift times. I know this isn't Manchester but Deeside Industrial Estate has most shifts running 6-2, 2-10, 10-6. All of the subsidised buses to local areas except the short distance shuttles are non existent at these times.

I think the way to get more people on buses is to try and get buses to link with main industrial shift times and office times. Until that is done, people will stop using buses to get to/from work.

I think you are comparing apples with pears. Where in Greater Manchester are there large industrial estates that employ a large workforce that lack a bus service?

The biggest challenge for Stagecoach - and all bus operators - is to get the 9-5 commuters out of their cars. The vast majority of bus users travel between 7 am and 7 pm which is also the time when most conurbations, especially Manchester, experience traffic congestion and gridlock.

I saw a TV report recently about the current ongoing issues in central Manchester and the most vociferous comments came from disgruntled motorists. One in particular was very telling. To paraphrase: "It's ridiculous. It's taken me 40 minutes to travel the one mile from my home to my work."

Until this motorist (and thousands more) realise that they are part of the problem and other modes of transport are possible - including walking - traffic congestion will only get worse and bus usage will decline.

(29/10/2018 20:37)Barney Wrote: [ -> ]Clearly the issue of attracting growth is getting off topic but I pose this question: How is it that, John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor feels perfectly at ease when admitting that he tripped up having just got off a bus in London last week when, outside of the capital, young people on the minimum wage aspire to owning a car as soon as they can afford one?

Because there's no other way to get around. Sadly both the big companies and transport authorities live in the dark ages and still believe that 99 per cent of bus users want to travel between 7am and 7pm Monday to Saturday which is not the case. Stagecoach Manchester have for some months now run a promotion where all adult single fares between 7 and 11 are only £2. Ironically the radio ad they ran suggested people leave the cars at home and travel into the city centre by bus. It's almost like they are saying sod the shift workers who rely on the skeleton bus services away from city centre.

(29/10/2018 14:23)dca529x Wrote: [ -> ]If they have to resort to doing that, then that just demonstrates an admission to it being a familiar number. so, if it's an familiar number, why change it ?. Dumbing down, nothing more.

I do agree that it seems crazy to simplify bus numbers but then continue to display the old number under the new one but I would imagine it will be a temporary set up.
I think had this been done by First it would have just been all change from day one with no mention of previous numbers and no thought for confused passengers.

(30/10/2018 12:07)Mayneway Wrote: [ -> ]Because there's no other way to get around. Sadly both the big companies and transport authorities live in the dark ages and still believe that 99 per cent of bus users want to travel between 7am and 7pm Monday to Saturday which is not the case.

The transport authorities have very little control over when Stagecoach and commercial operators run their services. I agree that that transport needs are constantly evolving and I do find it ironic that the bus services around the UK were infinitely better evenings and Sundays prior to deregulation when all shops closed at 5pm and city centres were like ghost towns on Sundays when shops, pubs, restaurants closed all day.

(29/10/2018 20:04)Brickmill Wrote: [ -> ]Congratulations, you have just been promoted to Stagecoach CEO! Why would car-less passengers be maintained in a "stable" system - whatever that means?

Clearly, we have fundamentally opposing ideas both politically and ethically, so there is no point in me even trying to argue the point.

I wasn't originally going to reply to this, as I imagine you'll disagree with me irrespectively. However 2 other posters have posted my sentiments in the middle (regards shift workers).

Carless passengers are in the unfortunate situation that in the short term they cannot alter their travel habits, and are fixed to public transport. However loyalty to these passengers alone will just allow the current spiral of passengers to continue (passengers reduce; service is reduced; passengers reduce; service is tendered; non-preferred operator arrives; passengers who can go elsewhere; carless passengers are stranded). The number of people without cars is reducing as I'm sure you know, so the risk is bus services will shrink too. There is going to be an increasing battle with technology based companies like uber/gett that people seem oblivious to up at the top that will eventually shave tech-savvy bus users away from traditional buses.

The Authorities, and seemingly operators too, are stuck in the past, thinking that everyone works 9-5 in town. There is also a gross misconception from a large number of people that people who have cars are incapable or unwilling to travel by bus.

The passengers that have been lost to car use, or have never really used the bus need to be persuaded that it is a viable option in order to arrest the decline in numbers. This in itself will commercially stabilise services allowing perpetual carless passengers to continue travelling by bus without the worry that its going to cease.

I will use myself as an example. Previously a city centre worker, I now work for a large company with more than one site in suburban or industrial areas. I work 7 days a week. Variable hours, and often the finish time changes while I'm at work. Some days I need to use a car for work (for work reasons), but on other days I choose to use public transport.

Most of my colleagues drive, but are completely open to using public transport. However it is not the commonly banded pre-conceptions that are barriers to their use (new buses, regimented numbering system, high frequency services - yes, they are nicetys). Also contrary to many bus enthusiasts beliefs, despite not being bus-enthusiasts my colleagues are actually capable of reading a timetable and dynamically planning a new journey if theres a problem.

The standalone problem for passengers that work in a modern job is multimodal ticketing, secondary to the fragmented operating system we have.

My journey to work involves a change mid route, and usually a tram. Depending on what happens or the time of day my journey can involve any or all of 4 operators (tram, stagecoach, first, MCT).
As it stands I have to buy an £8.40 system one each day, or the weekly or monthly equivalents, despite the fact that I often dont use the full value of the ticket (either because I end up driving too many times that month, or because I end up on the same operator that day). This is enough to put most people off. They dont want to spend £120.00 a month on something they dont use.

What paying passengers want is oyster style ticketing. They often cannot predict the exact journeys they will make anymore, they just want the flexibility to pay for what they use rather than having to second guess themselves. They dont neccessarily need London style fares, just a system which caps their fares to the real usage or the appropriate ticket(s).

You asked what I'd do as CEO of stagecoach - the answer is probably nothing because its not my place to initiate this, and id probably not be commercially inclined to do so. The ball squarely lies at the door of the authorities - they could write dynamic ticketing into the Metrolink contract, and that for all tendered services. All you would need then is an agreed reimbursement algorithm. Public pressure would ensure that the large operators came on board.

(30/10/2018 15:27)djb Wrote: [ -> ]I wasn't originally going to reply to this, as I imagine you'll disagree with me irrespectively. However 2 other posters have posted my sentiments in the middle (regards shift workers).

Carless passengers are in the unfortunate situation that in the short term they cannot alter their travel habits, and are fixed to public transport. However loyalty to these passengers alone will just allow the current spiral of passengers to continue (passengers reduce; service is reduced; passengers reduce; service is tendered; non-preferred operator arrives; passengers who can go elsewhere; carless passengers are stranded). The number of people without cars is reducing as I'm sure you know, so the risk is bus services will shrink too. There is going to be an increasing battle with technology based companies like uber/gett that people seem oblivious to up at the top that will eventually shave tech-savvy bus users away from traditional buses.

The Authorities, and seemingly operators too, are stuck in the past, thinking that everyone works 9-5 in town. There is also a gross misconception from a large number of people that people who have cars are incapable or unwilling to travel by bus.

The passengers that have been lost to car use, or have never really used the bus need to be persuaded that it is a viable option in order to arrest the decline in numbers. This in itself will commercially stabilise services allowing perpetual carless passengers to continue travelling by bus without the worry that its going to cease.

I will use myself as an example. Previously a city centre worker, I now work for a large company with more than one site in suburban or industrial areas. I work 7 days a week. Variable hours, and often the finish time changes while I'm at work. Some days I need to use a car for work (for work reasons), but on other days I choose to use public transport.

Most of my colleagues drive, but are completely open to using public transport. However it is not the commonly banded pre-conceptions that are barriers to their use (new buses, regimented numbering system, high frequency services - yes, they are nicetys). Also contrary to many bus enthusiasts beliefs, despite not being bus-enthusiasts my colleagues are actually capable of reading a timetable and dynamically planning a new journey if theres a problem.

The standalone problem for passengers that work in a modern job is multimodal ticketing, secondary to the fragmented operating system we have.

My journey to work involves a change mid route, and usually a tram. Depending on what happens or the time of day my journey can involve any or all of 4 operators (tram, stagecoach, first, MCT).
As it stands I have to buy an £8.40 system one each day, or the weekly or monthly equivalents, despite the fact that I often dont use the full value of the ticket (either because I end up driving too many times that month, or because I end up on the same operator that day). This is enough to put most people off. They dont want to spend £120.00 a month on something they dont use.

What paying passengers want is oyster style ticketing. They often cannot predict the exact journeys they will make anymore, they just want the flexibility to pay for what they use rather than having to second guess themselves. They dont neccessarily need London style fares, just a system which caps their fares to the real usage or the appropriate ticket(s).

You asked what I'd do as CEO of stagecoach - the answer is probably nothing because its not my place to initiate this, and id probably not be commercially inclined to do so. The ball squarely lies at the door of the authorities - they could write dynamic ticketing into the Metrolink contract, and that for all tendered services. All you would need then is an agreed reimbursement algorithm. Public pressure would ensure that the large operators came on board.

I think I partly misunderstood your original reply thinking you meant there should be no loyalty to carless passengers *at all* - which in practice, there isn't.
As for your other points; Obviously, circumstances vary but the point about the spiral of decline is that in the areas I'm talking about, the service cuts come *before* the passengers leave. And my other arguments are because I am acutely aware of uber/gett/wambamm etc. With bus fares consistently growing at 2.8 x inflation - as Single fares have done for the last 32 years - they are fast catching up with the taxi industry and in some cases (shorter journeys) are already more expensive. This will only get worse once the taxi industry target poor areas in particular.
Also, perverse as it may sound, most loyal passengers don't want more people attracted on (or back) to buses as they see their buses as full to capacity at peak times (and certain other times) as it is. There is no "give" in the system and if Operators are cutting well loaded services to start with, there is no reason to think they will restore headways if loadings increase.
Whilst I accept that things are changing and obviously I don't know where you live or work, generally speaking for most of the population (especially the carless), buses are the only form of public transport. Rail (both heavy/light) remains a remote form of transport to the majority and for all the bus industry's faults, rail is FAR less reliable.
The reference to being Stagecoach CEO was based on their current policy, and whilst you say people don't necessarily want London-style fares, its worth remembering that wages are far higher in London and a broader cross-section of society (in terms of income) use public transport down there. More to the point, under Stagecoach's current thinking, any "Flat" fares would be much higher in some areas (basically the eastern quadrant in an arc east from the A6 round to Oldham Road) than in south Manchester, Trafford and especially, Salford.
I don't know what can and cannot be written into contracts regarding ticketing, but again Metrolink is a minority form of transport to most carless people and contracted bus services account for barely 8% of passengers in GM - and an even smaller proportion of full fare paying Adults.
Remember also that there are two main reasons why "smart ticketing" is taking so long to roll out in GM:
1. The "re-imbursement algorythm" you refer to has been a long running problem, mainly because smaller Operators never felt they were getting their fair share. I assume its simply the decline in the number of commercial Operators that has allowed any recent progress.
2. The whole concept has had to be worked up from scratch. Constant reference to "Oyster card" doesn't help because TFL hold the Intellectual Property rights to that system and I understand they told GMPTE/ITA (as was) that it would cost £100 million to copy any part of OysterCard.

(30/10/2018 13:33)Barney Wrote: [ -> ]The transport authorities have very little control over when Stagecoach and commercial operators run their services. I agree that that transport needs are constantly evolving and I do find it ironic that the bus services around the UK were infinitely better evenings and Sundays prior to deregulation when all shops closed at 5pm and city centres were like ghost towns on Sundays when shops, pubs, restaurants closed all day.

Transport authorities can very easily fund services to make them run earlier/later so in some ways they do have control. A little bit of money goes a long way.

(30/10/2018 15:27)djb Wrote: [ -> ]Carless passengers are in the unfortunate situation that in the short term they cannot alter their travel habits, and are fixed to public transport. However loyalty to these passengers alone will just allow the current spiral of passengers to continue (passengers reduce; service is reduced; passengers reduce; service is tendered; non-preferred operator arrives; passengers who can go elsewhere; carless passengers are stranded). The number of people without cars is reducing as I'm sure you know, so the risk is bus services will shrink too.

The Authorities, and seemingly operators too, are stuck in the past, thinking that everyone works 9-5 in town. There is also a gross misconception from a large number of people that people who have cars are incapable or unwilling to travel by bus.

The passengers that have been lost to car use, or have never really used the bus need to be persuaded that it is a viable option in order to arrest the decline in numbers. This in itself will commercially stabilise services allowing perpetual carless passengers to continue travelling by bus without the worry that its going to cease.

Airport City is a good example. There are no regular buses to there despite having a massive Amazon distribution. Trafford Park (The biggest industrial estate in Europe employing approx 35,000 people) has no regular buses. It has the 291 and 293 which run at very specific times and the 291 is only to Trafford Park AM and from Trafford Park PM. This is why people chose to use their car as buses simply aren't available. I fully agree with you that companies are stuck in the stone ages.

Then there's the lack of buses going to out of town shopping areas. Diamond have hit this one spot on with their 126 and 300 but others seem to miss the point a bit. Quick links to big out of town shopping areas. Not everyone wants to travel for an hour going round the world and back just to get to the shopping centre. They will just drive.
Where I live, to my closest retail park, it was 2 buses which took around 30 minutes. Since I campaigned to get a bus set up, it now carried 3k pax per month and takes only 10-15 minutes. Small links make a big difference.

Route branding is something which I keep seeing dropping lately as well which is a shame. That is a great way to advertise services. Even if you just do a few buses (like a route has a PVR of 10, brand up 3 buses) so there is unbranded spares which can go on any route and not confuse people. It advertises the service. I think companies need to start advertising on bus shelters as well. IF they are the only operator, show off and advertise how cheap it is, how services run etc etc.

Combine all the above and what do you get..... Vastly declining passenger numbers....

(30/10/2018 09:40)Barney Wrote: [ -> ]The biggest challenge for Stagecoach - and all bus operators - is to get the 9-5 commuters out of their cars.

This is something that KendalKing on another forum has complained about. A couple years ago he complained about stagecoach cutting his local service by over 70%. He says his first bus is now at 09.40 (previously was at 07.05), which he says is of no use for commuters.