New Buses Orders

[Phil]

RE: New Buses Orders
So yet more sodding pulsars for routes that should see deckers.

Barring cross river services, Liverpool has only FIVE route corridors out of the city centre that see regular double deckers. These are:

56/A
79/D
82/D
86/A/C/D
X2

Liverpool = Sardine city

[wirralbus]

RE: New Buses Orders

(13/03/2013 20:44)Phil Wrote:  So yet more sodding pulsars for routes that should see deckers.

Barring cross river services, Liverpool has only FIVE route corridors out of the city centre that see regular double deckers. These are:

56/A
79/D
82/D
86/A/C/D
X2

Liverpool = Sardine city

Have you noticed that double deckers from Liverpool all go west , north and south , but none go east for some reason only known to the bus company managers .

[Gillmoss 0324]

RE: New Buses Orders

(13/03/2013 20:44)Phil Wrote:  So yet more sodding pulsars for routes that should see deckers.

Barring cross river services, Liverpool has only FIVE route corridors out of the city centre that see regular double deckers. These are:

56/A
79/D
82/D
86/A/C/D
X2

Liverpool = Sardine city

Well put Phil. The pros/cons of having deckers in Liverpool can be debated before and yes they may get vandalism problems. But so do single deckers and so do places where it's not considered a problem like the Wirral and beyond Merseyside. In February I used Laird Street's 4404 (I think) which had the front upstairs nearside seat bent backwards and have noticed other problems with burn marks, and minor bits of vandalism of LS's Enviro 400's so they're not exactly little angels who use the buses other there. More frustratingly with perhaps thr exception of the 437 and maybe M-F peaks most Wirral routes can easily cope with 12m single decks as IMHO you're lucky to see 25-35 people on them at the most.

From what I see the weight of numbers using east and north Liverpool routes like 10/10A, 12/13 and 20/21 suggest deckers should at least be used to some degree on these routes. There's also a strong case for them to appear on routes like the 10B, 15, 18, 52/52A, 53/53 etc. Excluding what already has double decks everything else can cope with 12m single decks. However taking Green Lane as an example nothing should really be smaller than a Pulsar operating out of there and even the 6/7/8/9's struggle the loads with Dart's and SB120's sometimes let alone when they appear on the 10B, 12/13, 14, 15, 18 etc.

The vandalism/ASBO thing is a cop out as I don't see deckers being any worse than what happens to them in other places like Manchester, Glasgow, Newcastle and in particular Birmingham. Even at it's worst in Liverpool you wouldn't get anything like the £1m yearly grafitti bill that Nat Ex West Midlands has got at the moment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlcxpxUBjdU

The only way this situation will change is if we and non enthusiast bus users complain to Arriva, Stagecoach and more importantly Merseytravel. I know they don't seem bothered and in the case of Arriva and Stagecoach they're putting in cheap buses in Liverpool becasue they can but if enough people start pressurising these organisations perhaps something - maybe not everything will be done to at least see 1-2 of these routes have larger capacity vehicles than what they have now.

Just changing the subject does anyone else agree for the last 18 months Green Lane seems to have become a dumping ground for cast of clapped out rubbish from elsewhere within Arriva. With the exception of the Renown's and the Dart slf's in particular GL does compare quite badly with say Speke and most definately Laird Street at the moment.

Sorry for if I go on but if feel these points have to be made.

[H101GEV (Administrator)]

RE: New Buses Orders
Absolutely agree Gillmoss, very well said.

I was in Manchester last Saturday and their buses are surely worse than ours in terms of vandalism. One of their 10-plate hybrids in particular had a number of etched windows, most seat backs near the rear having graffiti damage, burns or both and the window seals also graffitied. To me it looked worse than an unrefurbished Speke B7TL which is four years older. I like Manchester as a city but it's clearly got issues with vandalism that aren't preventing buses of the same size from being ordered as seen here. Evidently Birmingham has the most serious vandalism problem on buses in the country, yet it has a large proportion of deckers too.

I'm not sure Arriva have directly used vandalism as an excuse despite their Green Lane fleet being unacceptable in terms of its capacity - I'd add Bootle as well which uses double deckers mainly on routes which avoid city centre Liverpool. Stagecoach Merseyside's approach is absolute nonsense in my opinion and for Rock Ferry to be receiving Enviro400s of 2006 vintage while Gillmoss struggles on the 20/21/82/86 with Enviro300s, Darts and dated Tridents is a disgrace.

It's also worth mentioning that Birkenhead's 59-plate Pulsars have their fair share of vandalism, certainly comparable and arguably worse than Speke and Bootle single deckers. I would suggest Green Lane has the highest level of vandalism on Merseyside but hardly enough to prevent deckers. The St Helens Pulsars, however, seem to have little vandalism and are used amongst others on the Liverpool route which needs double deckers the most in my opinion, the 10/10A.

[Wright Eclipse]

RE: New Buses Orders

(13/03/2013 21:24)Gillmoss 0324 Wrote:  

(13/03/2013 20:44)Phil Wrote:  So yet more sodding pulsars for routes that should see deckers.

Barring cross river services, Liverpool has only FIVE route corridors out of the city centre that see regular double deckers. These are:

56/A
79/D
82/D
86/A/C/D
X2

Liverpool = Sardine city

Well put Phil. The pros/cons of having deckers in Liverpool can be debated before and yes they may get vandalism problems. But so do single deckers and so do places where it's not considered a problem like the Wirral and beyond Merseyside. In February I used Laird Street's 4404 (I think) which had the front upstairs nearside seat bent backwards and have noticed other problems with burn marks, and minor bits of vandalism of LS's Enviro 400's so they're not exactly little angels who use the buses other there. More frustratingly with perhaps thr exception of the 437 and maybe M-F peaks most Wirral routes can easily cope with 12m single decks as IMHO you're lucky to see 25-35 people on them at the most.

From what I see the weight of numbers using east and north Liverpool routes like 10/10A, 12/13 and 20/21 suggest deckers should at least be used to some degree on these routes. There's also a strong case for them to appear on routes like the 10B, 15, 18, 52/52A, 53/53 etc. Excluding what already has double decks everything else can cope with 12m single decks. However taking Green Lane as an example nothing should really be smaller than a Pulsar operating out of there and even the 6/7/8/9's struggle the loads with Dart's and SB120's sometimes let alone when they appear on the 10B, 12/13, 14, 15, 18 etc.

The vandalism/ASBO thing is a cop out as I don't see deckers being any worse than what happens to them in other places like Manchester, Glasgow, Newcastle and in particular Birmingham. Even at it's worst in Liverpool you wouldn't get anything like the £1m yearly grafitti bill that Nat Ex West Midlands has got at the moment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlcxpxUBjdU

The only way this situation will change is if we and non enthusiast bus users complain to Arriva, Stagecoach and more importantly Merseytravel. I know they don't seem bothered and in the case of Arriva and Stagecoach they're putting in cheap buses in Liverpool becasue they can but if enough people start pressurising these organisations perhaps something - maybe not everything will be done to at least see 1-2 of these routes have larger capacity vehicles than what they have now.

Just changing the subject does anyone else agree for the last 18 months Green Lane seems to have become a dumping ground for cast of clapped out rubbish from elsewhere within Arriva. With the exception of the Renown's and the Dart slf's in particular GL does compare quite badly with say Speke and most definately Laird Street at the moment.

Sorry for if I go on but if feel these points have to be made.

(13/03/2013 22:27)507009 Wrote:  Absolutely agree Gillmoss, very well said.

I was in Manchester last Saturday and their buses are surely worse than ours in terms of vandalism. One of their 10-plate hybrids in particular had a number of etched windows, most seat backs near the rear having graffiti damage, burns or both and the window seals also graffitied. To me it looked worse than an unrefurbished Speke B7TL which is four years older. I like Manchester as a city but it's clearly got issues with vandalism that aren't preventing buses of the same size from being ordered as seen here. Evidently Birmingham has the most serious vandalism problem on buses in the country, yet it has a large proportion of deckers too.

I'm not sure Arriva have directly used vandalism as an excuse despite their Green Lane fleet being unacceptable in terms of its capacity - I'd add Bootle as well which uses double deckers mainly on routes which avoid city centre Liverpool. Stagecoach Merseyside's approach is absolute nonsense in my opinion and for Rock Ferry to be receiving Enviro400s of 2006 vintage while Gillmoss struggles on the 20/21/82/86 with Enviro300s, Darts and dated Tridents is a disgrace.

It's also worth mentioning that Birkenhead's 59-plate Pulsars have their fair share of vandalism, certainly comparable and arguably worse than Speke and Bootle single deckers. I would suggest Green Lane has the highest level of vandalism on Merseyside but hardly enough to prevent deckers. The St Helens Pulsars, however, seem to have little vandalism and are used amongst others on the Liverpool route which needs double deckers the most in my opinion, the 10/10A.

I Agree with both these posts

when i went to Liverpool i was surprised by the low numbers of Double Deckers,plus until 2011 79 Was also a single decker route wasn't it?.maybe if firstbus had a bigger operation in the city when it had one it might of been a different story,from experience they like to put double deckers on routes that could survive with singles expect for peak times (take Manchester 83 or a lot of Bradford/Leeds Network).as for vandalism i thought thats why operators bothered with CCTV.Is there many low bridges within Liverpool? - that might be a reason why,

[CX06 EBK (Administrator)]

RE: New Buses Orders
There are no low bridges on any of these corridors, most if not all mentioned used to see regular decker workings in MTL/Merseybus days and prior to that.

[Wright Eclipse]

RE: New Buses Orders

(14/03/2013 13:58)CX06 EBK Wrote:  There are no low bridges on any of these corridors, most if not all mentioned used to see regular decker workings in MTL/Merseybus days and prior to that.

Ok,just thought i`d ask

maybe arriva know something we dont as the reason for singles,maybe the peak time loadings wont cover the cost of operating deckers at quieter times

[Gillmoss 0324]

RE: New Buses Orders
Thanks for the replies. I’m not attacking either Arriva or Stagecoach who generally do a reasonable if could be better job in Liverpool however I do feel routes like the 10/10A, 12/13, 20/21 and some of the other I mentioned previously do need double deck operation and I also feel despite the scaly problems and vandalism they’re operation would be no worse in this region than what happens in other bigger (and smaller) cities which have more widescale decker operation.

The main reason for this shift to single decks in Liverpool was the availability of 12m step entrance single decks like B10B/Endurances which could seat 49 to 51 and at a push could cope on routes like the 10A and 86 although even at that time I’d have preferred to have seen Volvo Olympians bought for those routes. In addition around the time MTL started buying these Endurances you had an awful lot more competition in Liverpool with the likes of CMT, North Western, Village and even for a shorter term operators like GMN/GMS and Liverbus which were around until 1995. Prior to the Arriva takeover of MTL you had at least 3-4 companies competing on the lucrative Liverpool routes and deckers started to be less of a requirement for routes like the 10A, 26/27, 79, 86 etc. Even then the corridors they operated on had some form of decker operation on peripheral routes like 8/9, 35, 38, 80 etc. Compounding this problem was the shift to low floor single decks. A Scania/Ultralow or B10BLE at best had 40 to 44 seats so MTL shifted to cheaper 37 seat Dart slf’s and the loss of 2 meters standing room resulted in cramped conditions for passengers on routes like the 79. MTL also bought Dart slf’s and Marshall’s in particular because they were cheap and generally saved them the cost of replacing Titan’s and Atlanteans with +£110k Volvo singles or more expensive double decks.

When Arriva bought MTL they foolishly expanded the midi bus buying policy to the extent the majority of the fleet had them, routes were cut and rationalised and whether or not a 12m single decker was more appropriate they bought them for those routes anyway. GTL still lingered around for a few years with ageing Titan’s on many of the profitable routes but even they went down the midi route and even worse when Stagecoach bought them yet more Dart slf’s appeared even though the MAN/ALX300 which was still available would IMHO been more suitable for a scaled down Gillmoss.

Now there’s just two operators and the pattern of competition/frequencies have reduced. However the amount of people using them generally haven’t and now you get Pulsars, Enviros and worse Midi sized vehicles with full standing loads on most of these routes. Okay South Liverpool has rightly seen deckers come back on the 79/82/86’s but the case for having them on the 10/10A, 12/13 and 20/21 is just as strong coming as someone who sometimes can’t get on a bus in Old Swan or the Jolly Miller due to the packed standing loads – and I’m not a regular user of these routes.

Considering the 12/13 it was always a double deck route and it only got single deckers on their due to it becoming part of the SMART initiative in 1996. Even then the 18’s, 75’s had deckers and the 212 and 274/275 had partial decker operation too.

Stagecoach and the 20/21 is another route which really needs the deckers especially at weekends although most of the remaining Stagecoach operations in North East Liverpool and Kirkby that doesn’t compete with Arriva can survive with single decks. A solution could be for the 20/21 to replace Stagecoach journeys on the 82 and become a cross city route to Liverpool South Parkway.

As said before the only way this situation is going to change is if it’s brought to the attention of Arriva, Stagecoach and Merseytravel even the Echo and Buses mag could be good sources to bring this up with as it’s kind of frustrating not being able to board overly packed buses on these corridors or standing on a full bus which is in a ‘doughnut’ convoy after waiting 10-15 mins only to see another bus race past less full.

As said there must be reasons/perhaps good reasons why Arriva and Stagecoach won’t do deckers in East/North Liverpool but overall I see nothing worse happening and/or the users of these routes being no worse than those who use them in the south of the city etc.

[Neoplan N4009]

RE: New Buses Orders
Its About time members are pointing out the problems with our bus network. At the end of the day you could put an Enviro 300 on the 86 & that would still justify decker usage instead of the 86C - most QBP's result in sardine conditions especially on the southern corridor. Though as mentioned many other services not under the QBP do justify deckers. It's about time someone has a look at this

[Phil]

RE: New Buses Orders

(14/03/2013 16:24)Gillmoss 0324 Wrote:  ... Prior to the Arriva takeover of MTL you had at least 3-4 companies competing on the lucrative Liverpool routes and deckers started to be less of a requirement for routes like the 10A, 26/27, 79, 86 etc. Even then the corridors they operated on had some form of decker operation on peripheral routes like 8/9, 35, 38, 80 etc. Compounding this problem was the shift to low floor single decks. A Scania/Ultralow or B10BLE at best had 40 to 44 seats so MTL shifted to cheaper 37 seat Dart slf’s and the loss of 2 meters standing room resulted in cramped conditions for passengers on routes like the 79. MTL also bought Dart slf’s and Marshall’s in particular because they were cheap and generally saved them the cost of replacing Titan’s and Atlanteans with +£110k Volvo singles or more expensive double decks.

When Arriva bought MTL they foolishly expanded the midi bus buying policy to the extent the majority of the fleet had them, routes were cut and rationalised and whether or not a 12m single decker was more appropriate they bought them for those routes anyway. GTL still lingered around for a few years with ageing Titan’s on many of the profitable routes but even they went down the midi route and even worse when Stagecoach bought them yet more Dart slf’s appeared even though the MAN/ALX300 which was still available would IMHO been more suitable for a scaled down Gillmoss.

I suppose that when Arriva bought out MTL, we had arguably the worst possible MD in Bob Hind. This is a man who was quoted as saying "We'll use single deckers wherever possible" and that single deckers on the 79 corridor were "adequate."

It is easy to point the finger at MTL for the sudden, horrible influx of midi buses. 75 marshall darts was a huge number to be delivered and looking at some of the routes they were deployed on, you knew something was terribly wrong. They were in the s**t financially and couldn't really afford anything else, even the registration for 7676 (should have been 7666 - V666 DVU)

Then Arriva came in and immediately claimed to have 'rescued' MTL.

Cue mass route cuts and more horrible mass influxes of midi buses in cadets and darts to replace deckers. The Volvo B10s and B6s were only 'honoured' by Arriva as MTL had already ordered them apparantly.

I have always been of the opinion that high frequency single deck corridors only work for quick profits and not the passenger and this looks set to continue. Sadly