Manchester bus franchising

[EDB325]

RE: Manchester bus franchising
Back in 1998, when I was a taxi trade representative in Trafford, I attended the National Taxi Association's AGM. The main presentation and discussions were on the Green Paper on integrated public transport.

25 years later very little has changed in any sector of the industry, and what change HAS occurred has not brought about one iota of improvement.

It's obviously the general blame will be placed on politicians, but over the subsequent years it became obvious that the REAL source of the problems was actually the civil servants charged with introducing the proposed changes.

Add to that the fact that the Minister of Transport (or whatever title that person holds this year) is replaced with increasing frequency by somebody else who knows sod all about public transport.

Andy Burnham has his vision, some of it is good in theory, little of it will work in practice. This is due partially to the cost of implementation (and its impact on all our pockets), but it's also very much down to the persistent incompetence of the public servants who are paid to make the plans reality.

Look at public transport in other major countries, and the positives of Government positivity are clear to see. Look at ours, and it's been a shambles for years because our government merely pays lip service to the concept.

[Barney]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(21/02/2023 13:23)EDB325 Wrote:  Back in 1998, when I was a taxi trade representative in Trafford, I attended the National Taxi Association's AGM. The main presentation and discussions were on the Green Paper on integrated public transport.

25 years later very little has changed in any sector of the industry, and what change HAS occurred has not brought about one iota of improvement.

It's obviously the general blame will be placed on politicians, but over the subsequent years it became obvious that the REAL source of the problems was actually the civil servants charged with introducing the proposed changes.

Add to that the fact that the Minister of Transport (or whatever title that person holds this year) is replaced with increasing frequency by somebody else who knows sod all about public transport.

Andy Burnham has his vision, some of it is good in theory, little of it will work in practice. This is due partially to the cost of implementation (and its impact on all our pockets), but it's also very much down to the persistent incompetence of the public servants who are paid to make the plans reality.

Look at public transport in other major countries, and the positives of Government positivity are clear to see. Look at ours, and it's been a shambles for years because our government merely pays lip service to the concept.

I totally agree with you that far too often the position of the Secretary of State for Transport is a short-term one - there have been three since last September - and it would be refreshing to see someone in office who has a genuine interest and understanding of the brief.

As you have conceded, Andy Burnham does have a vision and will attempt to implement it thanks to the 2017 legislation but I am not sure its ultimate success of failure will be down to the "persistent incompetence of the public servants". Who are these people? Name names.

Yes, absolutely, the whole public transport set-up in the UK is an embarrassing shambles. The reason for this is because successive UK governments refuse to acknowledge the fact that you have to fund and finance it from the public purse. On continental Europe, bus operation is either under state control of has the franchising model. Why can't it exist in the UK?

[KXW212]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(22/02/2023 10:15)Barney Wrote:  I totally agree with you that far too often the position of the Secretary of State for Transport is a short-term one - there have been three since last September - and it would be refreshing to see someone in office who has a genuine interest and understanding of the brief.

As you have conceded, Andy Burnham does have a vision and will attempt to implement it thanks to the 2017 legislation but I am not sure its ultimate success of failure will be down to the "persistent incompetence of the public servants". Who are these people? Name names.

Yes, absolutely, the whole public transport set-up in the UK is an embarrassing shambles. The reason for this is because successive UK governments refuse to acknowledge the fact that you have to fund and finance it from the public purse. On continental Europe, bus operation is either under state control of has the franchising model. Why can't it exist in the UK?

"persistent incompetence of the public servants".
Lets start with the last 7 Secretary's of State for Transport then
Hammond, Greening, McLoughlin, Grayling (a particular standout), Shapps, Trevelyan, Harper.
The issue isn't where the legislation comes from, it's the quality of the individual implementing it. When we have politics attracting the very worst in society (that applies across the political spectrum, both local and national) it's hardly surprising that transport and most other things are in such a dire state.
I actually hope GM franchising as a concept works out, but I have zero confidence in the knowledge or ability of those doing it. We'll see

[Barney]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(22/02/2023 11:05)KXW212 Wrote:  "persistent incompetence of the public servants".
Lets start with the last 7 Secretary's of State for Transport then
Hammond, Greening, McLoughlin, Grayling (a particular standout), Shapps, Trevelyan, Harper.
The issue isn't where the legislation comes from, it's the quality of the individual implementing it. When we have politics attracting the very worst in society (that applies across the political spectrum, both local and national) it's hardly surprising that transport and most other things are in such a dire state.
I actually hope GM franchising as a concept works out, but I have zero confidence in the knowledge or ability of those doing it. We'll see

Yes, but it is not the role of the Secretary of State to implement the details of the franchising process. That has been left to those at a local level at TfGM. In due course all the elected members of the GMCA, not just Andy Burnham, will have to face the consequences if franchising fails as you believe it will.

[Mayneway]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(22/02/2023 20:33)Barney Wrote:  Yes, but it is not the role of the Secretary of State to implement the details of the franchising process. That has been left to those at a local level at TfGM. In due course all the elected members of the GMCA, not just Andy Burnham, will have to face the consequences if franchising fails as you believe it will.

And as far as I’m aware you have zero experience of TFGM and the way they operate. I have! Hence why I say it will be a complete shambles!

[Barney]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(23/02/2023 11:31)Mayneway Wrote:  And as far as I’m aware you have zero experience of TFGM and the way they operate. I have! Hence why I say it will be a complete shambles!

I remember the pre-deregulation era. Do you?

A while back you also predicted that franchising would never happen. It is happening and I predict that over the next few years it will be adopted in many other areas of the UK. As deregulation was given more than 30 years to prove itself, I think that it only fair to reserve judgement on its impact until at least 2035.

[Mayneway]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(23/02/2023 20:27)Barney Wrote:  I remember the pre-deregulation era. Do you?

A while back you also predicted that franchising would never happen. It is happening and I predict that over the next few years it will be adopted in many other areas of the UK. As deregulation was given more than 30 years to prove itself, I think that it only fair to reserve judgement on its impact until at least 2035.

What absolute rubbish.
I didn’t predict anything I was tipped off by a TFGM employee that they were so far behind with planning and recruiting etc that would most likely get pushed back a few years - it could still happen. As far as I’m aware they still haven’t recruited any additional staff like revenue protection and customer service advisors etc.

I don’t know when you last visited Manchester City centre but I’ve spent the day sat in horrendous traffic all day because TFGM allow contractors to carry out 3 separate sets of roadworks around the city centre causing absolute chaos. These same people will be responsible for the bus network in the near future.
Come and experience things before they change and then tell me TFGM will do a super job!

[Mrboo]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(23/02/2023 21:52)Mayneway Wrote:  What absolute rubbish.
I didn’t predict anything I was tipped off by a TFGM employee that they were so far behind with planning and recruiting etc that would most likely get pushed back a few years - it could still happen. As far as I’m aware they still haven’t recruited any additional staff like revenue protection and customer service advisors etc.

I don’t know when you last visited Manchester City centre but I’ve spent the day sat in horrendous traffic all day because TFGM allow contractors to carry out 3 separate sets of roadworks around the city centre causing absolute chaos. These same people will be responsible for the bus network in the near future.
Come and experience things before they change and then tell me TFGM will do a super job!

TFGM don't have to rush getting additional staff like revenue protection and customer service advisors as it only Bolton and Wigan. They could just use an outside team for revenue protection like TIL . and what customer service advisors. London does not have this. Now they do have network officers but does Manchester need people in yellow vans dealing with issues as it could be like it is today with companies looking after their own issues?

[Barney]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(23/02/2023 21:52)Mayneway Wrote:  I don’t know when you last visited Manchester City centre but I’ve spent the day sat in horrendous traffic all day because TFGM allow contractors to carry out 3 separate sets of roadworks around the city centre causing absolute chaos.

I visit Manchester on a regular basis - almost weekly - but always use public transport to get there and to move about the city centre. You should try it. It's much better than sitting in a traffic jam all day long.

As for TfGM allowing contractors to carry out road works, what is the alternative? Don't attempt any improvements or upgrades?

I repeat, do you remember bus services prior to deregulation in 1986?

[Michael]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(24/02/2023 08:16)Barney Wrote:  I visit Manchester on a regular basis - almost weekly - but always use public transport to get there and to move about the city centre. You should try it. It's much better than sitting in a traffic jam all day long.

As for TfGM allowing contractors to carry out road works, what is the alternative? Don't attempt any improvements or upgrades?

I repeat, do you remember bus services prior to deregulation in 1986?

I remember bus services prior to dereg......waiting over 30 mins for bus that was advertised as every 5 minutes...every morning making me late for work....then when one finally turned up driving past the stop because it was packed to the rafters