First Manchester

[Brickmill]

RE: First Manchester

(24/02/2019 21:21)gilesbus1 Wrote:  I think the issue with Oldham is a lot more complicated from what I understand much of the losses are here, because Metrolink flows right through and duplicates a number of routes therefore any buyer would face an uphill struggle also the bus depot property won't be available for long as its part of a town centre redevelopment scheme.

So someone would need to completely restructure it. It maybe that someone literally looks at profitable routes and de-registers the rest and lets TfGM pick up the pieces and then moves to much smaller premises or if an existing operator moves to another depot within their territory.

Also FirstGroup might try to restructure Oldham so it gets a better price before selling it onward.

The reaction of First to Metrolink Phase 3 has been somewhat different to Arriva and Stagecoach, as in there hasn't really been a reaction. There is still something like 14 buses an hour along Oldham Road (Mon-Sat daytime) and the 81 has actually been increased at the Manchester end. They have cut services to Shaw and beyond to Rochdale, but these were already in decline. Most other OM services aren't in competition with Metrolink, but one of the arguments for franchising has been both First and Stagecoach cutting local services instead of often, less profitable services to/from Manchester. This suggests that other Operators could take on some First services commercially, especially as TFGM simply won't have the budget - at least not in 2019/20.
This might leave First (or a buyer) with a leaner operation that would help with options of an alternative OC, but would it surpress the overall value. Also, bear in mind Re-development plans have a habit of dragging on for many years and often being cancelled due to various financial or legal reasons.

[johnluke]

RE: First Manchester
Rosso needs to move from it's rochdale depot...if I can call it that..It's next to a scrap yard horrible place a mate of mine used to work for rossendale transport when they had Ellen Smith coaches ..It's a s××× hole

[gilesbus1]

RE: First Manchester

(24/02/2019 22:07)johnluke Wrote:  Rosso needs to move from it's rochdale depot...if I can call it that..It's next to a scrap yard horrible place a mate of mine used to work for rossendale transport when they had Ellen Smith coaches ..It's a s××× hole

So presumably a possible move to re-open Bury would help, should they buy Bolton?

I guess 50 or so vehicles could move in from Bolton then the entire allocation of Rochdale. That would give 100 or so vehicles there and then another 130-140 or so at Bolton with adequate space to expand both operations.

I presume should Transdev buy Bolton then it will become Bolton Bus Company?

[AlexBus12]

RE: First Manchester

(24/02/2019 22:14)gilesbus1 Wrote:  So presumably a possible move to re-open Bury would help, should they buy Bolton?

I guess 50 or so vehicles could move in from Bolton then the entire allocation of Rochdale. That would give 100 or so vehicles there and then another 130-140 or so at Bolton with adequate space to expand both operations.

I presume should Transdev buy Bolton then it will become Bolton Bus Company?

They'd have to find a new depot, the former bury depot is currently being converted into a car showroom

[gilesbus1]

RE: First Manchester

(24/02/2019 22:05)Brickmill Wrote:  The reaction of First to Metrolink Phase 3 has been somewhat different to Arriva and Stagecoach, as in there hasn't really been a reaction. There is still something like 14 buses an hour along Oldham Road (Mon-Sat daytime) and the 81 has actually been increased at the Manchester end. They have cut services to Shaw and beyond to Rochdale, but these were already in decline. Most other OM services aren't in competition with Metrolink, but one of the arguments for franchising has been both First and Stagecoach cutting local services instead of often, less profitable services to/from Manchester. This suggests that other Operators could take on some First services commercially, especially as TFGM simply won't have the budget - at least not in 2019/20.
This might leave First (or a buyer) with a leaner operation that would help with options of an alternative OC, but would it surpress the overall value. Also, bear in mind Re-development plans have a habit of dragging on for many years and often being cancelled due to various financial or legal reasons.

Yep that is a fair point especially as what is proposed at Oldham is a town centre development and based on the decline of town centre's might have the likelihood of falling flat on its face. I understand already Marks & Spencer withdrew its interest.

I think, and not sure if you feel the same?, that operators need to start thinking about feeder services to Metrolink off nearby estates which might increase employment opportunities for local communities and also increase accessibility. The Bus and Tram should ideally work alongside one another not against each other. That said there does need to be a cheaper alternative also for those who don't have money for two sets of fares.

[acocker96]

RE: First Manchester

(24/02/2019 22:22)gilesbus1 Wrote:  Yep that is a fair point especially as what is proposed at Oldham is a town centre development and based on the decline of town centre's might have the likelihood of falling flat on its face. I understand already Marks & Spencer withdrew its interest.

I think, and not sure if you feel the same?, that operators need to start thinking about feeder services to Metrolink off nearby estates which might increase employment opportunities for local communities and also increase accessibility. The Bus and Tram should ideally work alongside one another not against each other. That said there does need to be a cheaper alternative also for those who don't have money for two sets of fares.

First abandoned some estates like Limeside years ago, slowly withdrawing from routes like the 404, 405, 406 and the original 183. We’re a stagecoach dominated area we’re ripe for some competition and we have no links to the Metrolink without a 35 min walk.

Going back into the estates is a good way forward potentially I see.

[gilesbus1]

RE: First Manchester

(24/02/2019 22:35)acocker96 Wrote:  First abandoned some estates like Limeside years ago, slowly withdrawing from routes like the 404, 405, 406 and the original 183. We’re a stagecoach dominated area we’re ripe for some competition and we have no links to the Metrolink without a 35 min walk.

Going back into the estates is a good way forward potentially I see.

Yes that's what I thought, linking to Trams is also good maybe with combined ticketing as that makes the switch easier. Competing on services into Central Manchester isn't the best idea any longer as trams can stop closer to the middle, also they are quicker on many routes as the tram infrastructure is clear of roads on the Oldham/Rochdale, Bury, East Didsbury and Altrincham services in the main.

Connecting buses are also good, I presume as far as Metrolink is concerned as that would allow growth for them also.

I doesn't mean replacing the bus, it merely means working together to provide better travel solutions for all.

Those who would rather use the bus should also still be catered for but maybe on services into central Manchester a little less often when a faster tram alternative is also available.

The model that buses should serve the communities away from the main roads now is right. GM Buses pulled off many of these under directorship of Alan Westwell because competitors had gained business on them, but a lot of those competitors have now closed in the last 25-30 or so years.

[EDB325]

RE: First Manchester
A lot of the ideas expressed here remind me of the Government Green Paper on "Integrated Public Transport " back in 1998. As usual they only paid lip service to the plans, and we never did see seamless ticketing, unfettered access, or co-operation between bus and rail. Don't even start me on airports.

[Brickmill]

RE: First Manchester

(24/02/2019 22:22)gilesbus1 Wrote:  Yep that is a fair point especially as what is proposed at Oldham is a town centre development and based on the decline of town centre's might have the likelihood of falling flat on its face. I understand already Marks & Spencer withdrew its interest.

I think, and not sure if you feel the same?, that operators need to start thinking about feeder services to Metrolink off nearby estates which might increase employment opportunities for local communities and also increase accessibility. The Bus and Tram should ideally work alongside one another not against each other. That said there does need to be a cheaper alternative also for those who don't have money for two sets of fares.

Personally, I totally disagree with "forced" integration. All modes have punctually problem, but rail reliability is generally worse than bus. Connections are time consuming and often in a hostile environment. Tram running times are little better than bus especially off peak, so the journey needs to be at least 10 miles or so to generate door to door time saving s and finally, trams have don't even have cushioned seats. Even bus to bus integration isn't ideal unless between frequent services.

[WhiteVanMan]

RE: First Manchester

(24/02/2019 22:22)gilesbus1 Wrote:  I think, and not sure if you feel the same?, that operators need to start thinking about feeder services to Metrolink off nearby estates which might increase employment opportunities for local communities and also increase accessibility. The Bus and Tram should ideally work alongside one another not against each other.

This is whats happens in London, with buses serving both overground and underground rail stations.