Forum | Merseyside Dennis Dart Website

Full Version: First Manchester
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 660 661 662 663 664 665 666 667 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 689 690 691 692 693 694 695 696 697 698 699 700 701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 710 711 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731
The story hasn't made the Times yet, but I notice First group's share price rose by about 3% yesterday. There's possibly a bit of skullduggery going on.

If they do sell, who would be the possible buyers ? Stagecoach could be interested in Bolton since it conveniently adjoins Wigan, but the Competition Regulator wouldn't be very keen on them getting their hands on Queen's Road, and Oldham might not appeal. Arriva probably won't consider any expansion in the current Brexit situation.

Do Transdev have the financial clout to come into the mix I wonder ?
(05/02/2019 10:40)EDB325 Wrote: [ -> ]The story hasn't made the Times yet, but I notice First group's share price rose by about 3% yesterday. There's possibly a bit of skullduggery going on.

If they do sell, who would be the possible buyers ? Stagecoach could be interested in Bolton since it conveniently adjoins Wigan, but the Competition Regulator wouldn't be very keen on them getting their hands on Queen's Road, and Oldham might not appeal. Arriva probably won't consider any expansion in the current Brexit situation.

Do Transdev have the financial clout to come into the mix I wonder ?

I would think Stagecoach would almost certainly go for oldham. I just wonder if legally as a separate entity stagecoach Merseyside could bid for Bolton??
(05/02/2019 19:51)Mayneway Wrote: [ -> ]I would think Stagecoach would almost certainly go for oldham. I just wonder if legally as a separate entity stagecoach Merseyside could bid for Bolton??

I'd think Stagecoach would have more issues surrounding competition going for Oldham because of all the Tameside routes. Bolton only really has the 38 in competition, and the 34/Vantage to an extent. Bolton would be fairly attractive I'd have thought because of Vantage, and the opportunity to make changes to the 36/37/38 to fill the buses up a bit more!
This all did the rounds last year. It is no surprise though if they are considering selling it.

First of all they don't like the idea of a franchised network, they sold operations in London for that reason.

Second reason is over the years they have made bad management decisions, like closing so many depots that the dead mileage is astronomical and also de-registering services, so people don't use the feeder services.

Also Metrolink is trimming away at mileage in the North between Oldham and Manchester, Manchester and Rochdale and Rochdale and Oldham.

Fares are also constantly being increased so they don't compete with Metrolink effectively.

Vantage is an issue, in that the bid price is said to be wrong so they cant make a profit off it despite buses being generally full.

Traffic is an issue lets not forget an astronomical figure of extra cars went on the roads of Greater Manchester in the last two years, no doubt some of it because of the collapse in reliability of the buses.

Then we take a look at the 36 and 37 were First are clearly losing ground to Stagecoach on the 38, when I go into Manchester I regularly see 36's and 37's carrying next to nobody and 38's and 50's very busy though Salford, obviously a bad mistake to carry on both the 36 and 37 rather than amalgamating them into a single route or altering one of them to serve places poorly served like Roe Green and parts of Worsley.

Another issue has been giving up school work as that was a guaranteed income, much of this passing to Tyrers who has a smarter fleet than First Manchester.

In terms to buyers I would think its more or less certain that Stagecoach want Bolton, although Bolton would be the most attractive depot as the competition with Metrolink isn't there, and if in the mid term the Vantage contract could be re-secured at a better rate that could be highly profitable.

If Stagecoach was to get it it eliminates some competition for tenders out to the West should franchising take place.

Other likely buyers could be Comfort-Delgro and Transit Systems both of which have experience in the franchised market in London, although both of those would want to buy more than one depot in order to cut out competition.
There is no way Stagecoach would be able to buy any of these Depots as they already operate many Buses in Greater Manchester, It would need to be another Operator.
(05/02/2019 23:06)T42 PVM Wrote: [ -> ]There is no way Stagecoach would be able to buy any of these Depots as they already operate many Buses in Greater Manchester, It would need to be another Operator.

I am sceptical as to whether they could but look at the situation in Tayside were they managed to get Strathtay and gain more or less every major route in Perth and Kinross.

I has been suggested in the past that the opps in Wigan would pass to Merseyside control, they would also take Bolton so in effect there would be two separate companies for the time being which may be more acceptable to the MMC.

No doub't though they would have to clear MMC hurdles, the other option would be to sell Wigan on to another operator as part of an MMC agreement should there be issues.
I don’t think Stagecoach would get close to a takeover of Oldham depot, too many Oldham routes cut through North Manchester and as mentioned Tameside as it is; Stagecoach having those covered with Ashton and Middleton.

Stagecoach have also been sluggish with their own services lately especially when you consider the lack of 2018 investment, daft fare increases and more services being cut.

First have a load of 05-06 B7RLE’s to be replaced soon and Stagecoach have a high number of 08 plate Enviro400’s which will need replacement in a few years. That’s a huge expense for a company who don’t want franchising.

If First is to break up the ‘GM North’ division I think each depot will go to a different company, Arriva at a push may fancy Queens Road if they want to expand further into Manchester than just the South/Trafford.

I can possibly see another management buyout occuring if they can get some angel investors or venture capitalists involved.
I Could see Oldham routes being sold without the Depot as that land is wanted and also the Buses could be moved to make other depots more sellable so Stagecoach could take it by changing routes a bit and moving Middleton depot to say Hollingwood. Manchester could go to someone who wants to enter Manchester with Bolton going to one of the other companies in that area with them moving there fleet into that depot. if they don't sell they will wind up routes and give routes away like they done before in other areas.
There is no way that Stagecoach could take Oldham or any part of it as the Tameside and Middleton routes stray onto its operating area.

There was a said deal twelve months to two years ago when Stagecoach were having Bolton and another operator, RATP if I recall wanted the other two.

Since RATP has lost Metrolink it would be interesting to see if this is still the case.

First may sell them as separate depots but its not beyond the realms of possibility that one operator may buy two or even all three depots as they are going to be sold cheaply. Individual depot sales might also interest Rotala who could perhaps raise enough capital to buy one depot and expand there operations, perhaps Bolton then Atherton could be closed and everything moved there, this could be the reason why a said possible buy out by Rotala of Arriva depots by Rotala, particularly Bolton, in Greater Manchester has gone cold.

Though to my mind I suspect because of the prospect of franchising a London based operator, either Comfort Delgro or Transit Systems might try to get some or all of the depots, not lets forget that, that's who bought most of Firsts London Operations when they pulled out there, though it would be a big learning curb for who ever was left in charge to change them to making a profit as I guess the current management team would remain with FirstGroup or get the push.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 660 661 662 663 664 665 666 667 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 689 690 691 692 693 694 695 696 697 698 699 700 701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 710 711 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731
Reference URL's