Southern Trains

[childwallblues]

Southern Trains
Southern Trains currently have an order for 26 x 5-car Electrostars placed earlier this year for delivery in 2013/14. They have now exercised an option to order a further 8 x 5-car Electrostars for delivery from December 2014.
An interesting development is that Southern is to go out to tender for a further 100 units with an option for a further 116. Nothing else is known as yet but it is clear that this order is in connection with Thameslink.

[Penny Return]

RE: Southern Trains

(23/11/2012 07:39)childwallblues Wrote:  Southern Trains currently have an order for 26 x 5-car Electrostars placed earlier this year for delivery in 2013/14. They have now exercised an option to order a further 8 x 5-car Electrostars for delivery from December 2014.
An interesting development is that Southern is to go out to tender for a further 100 units with an option for a further 116. Nothing else is known as yet but it is clear that this order is in connection with Thameslink.

What a surprise ! more new investment for the southeast while we on Merseyside get
sweet FA

[kuyoyo]

RE: Southern Trains

(23/11/2012 08:50)Penny Return Wrote:  

(23/11/2012 07:39)childwallblues Wrote:  Southern Trains currently have an order for 26 x 5-car Electrostars placed earlier this year for delivery in 2013/14. They have now exercised an option to order a further 8 x 5-car Electrostars for delivery from December 2014.
An interesting development is that Southern is to go out to tender for a further 100 units with an option for a further 116. Nothing else is known as yet but it is clear that this order is in connection with Thameslink.

What a surprise ! more new investment for the southeast while we on Merseyside get
sweet FA

Erm, this is all being sorted by the Department for Transport who allocation the funding for new stock for the franchises for which it has the leasing powers. Considering Merseyrail doesn't fall into that bracket, it's Merseytravel that has to source the fleet for Mersyrail and I think it's been mentioned before that they have put over invitaion to tender for new stock.

Also, consider this, these extra sets for Southern will allow older stock to be cascaded. Considering the oldest vehicles with Southern now are the 455s (not conuting the 456s given they are due to move to South West Trains next year, or the 442s as they are offically Gatwick Express vehicles), depending if it's a further 100/116 carriages or 110/116 units (ie 110/116 trains or 22 5 car sets and a further 27 4 car sets [or 22 5 car sets with the opition of a further 22 5 car and 2 4 car sets]) could means some of the earlier 377s could be displaced. But then, I doubt that could happen.

[childwallblues]

RE: Southern Trains
People go on about Merseyrail 507/508 stock but they are not the oldest in the country those being Class 313s.
Indeed South West Trains units 5701-42/50 each contain one carriage from 508101-43 which was removed on transfer to Merseyside. Indeed again SWT are to refurbish all 455s at Bournemouth over the next few years.

[First Class]

RE: Southern Trains

(23/11/2012 08:50)Penny Return Wrote:  

(23/11/2012 07:39)childwallblues Wrote:  Southern Trains currently have an order for 26 x 5-car Electrostars placed earlier this year for delivery in 2013/14. They have now exercised an option to order a further 8 x 5-car Electrostars for delivery from December 2014.
An interesting development is that Southern is to go out to tender for a further 100 units with an option for a further 116. Nothing else is known as yet but it is clear that this order is in connection with Thameslink.

What a surprise ! more new investment for the southeast while we on Merseyside get
sweet FA

Perhaps you haven't realised that some of these "additional" units could be ending up on the newly electrified line between Liverpool & Blackpool/Manchester.

It is nothing to do with Thameslink! Class 700s are being arranged for those services.

After all, with the discovery that the Class 319s will be incompatible with the 25kV wires, (all new installations of AC wiring are required to meet higher EU standards, which require modern pantagraphs and technical modifications), it is even more likely new stock will be used, rather than cascaded.

New OHLE must conform to the EU TSI standards, which gives a higher tension than the existing UK standard.

Any Thameslink stock also needs to be ATO capable, which the 377s aren't. It needs dedicated new build stock.

In an even more surprising twist, it could transpire to contribute towards a Merseyrail fleet replacement, as there is an additional option to order 200 more 377 carriages, (dual voltage).

[childwallblues]

RE: Southern Trains
The 100 (+116) new carriages need to be dual voltage 110 mph stock. None of that on the Southern in fact only about 15 miles of the Brighton line is passed for 100 mph. Also they have no wires. Now they don't need 25 (+29) four car units for North Pole-Milton Keynes Central so what are they to be used for?

[H101GEV (Administrator)]

RE: Southern Trains
My understanding is that the 377/6s, due in 2013/14, are to enable the majority of Southern Metro services via Balham to be extended to 10 car. They will also partially replace the 456 fleet which as mentioned is passing to South West Trains.

The additional 216 Childwall has mentioned are likely to be for replacing 442s on the Gatwick Express and possibly 313s in the future. Nothing to do with Merseyrail fleet replacement: it's a Southern tender and what is replaced is unsuitable (442) and older than the present order in Liverpool (313).

[First Class]

RE: Southern Trains

(23/11/2012 22:26)507009 Wrote:  My understanding is that the 377/6s, due in 2013/14, are to enable the majority of Southern Metro services via Balham to be extended to 10 car. They will also partially replace the 456 fleet which as mentioned is passing to South West Trains.

The additional 216 Childwall has mentioned are likely to be for replacing 442s on the Gatwick Express and possibly 313s in the future. Nothing to do with Merseyrail fleet replacement: it's a Southern tender and what is replaced is unsuitable (442) and older than the present order in Liverpool (313).

London Midland tendered for TPE, it makes no difference who orders the stock!

I won't argue on here, but this is definitely connected with the NW Electrification scheme.

My point about Merseyrail is that you may find that it is very, very cost effective for them to tag their order for new stock on to the 377 production line.

If Southern order a very, very large batch of 377s for a variety of uses/operators, the price per unit is a lot lower.

[H101GEV (Administrator)]

RE: Southern Trains

(25/11/2012 15:09)First Class Wrote:  London Midland tendered for TPE, it makes no difference who orders the stock!

The only reason London Midland ordered the 350s on TPE's behalf is because it is such a small fleet (10 units) and they are needed in the short term. LM had the option for extra units available and wanted an additional 10 for themselves, so it made sense to combine the order. It is very different for Merseyrail, whose fleet is far larger than ten and new trains are a good five years away being optimistic. Of course, there is also the point that 377s are completely unsuitable for Merseyrail without modifications to the current design.

I'm not sure how you jump to the conclusion Southern's order is connected with the NW electrification. It would surely be more cost effective for the 319s to be fitted with a compatible pantograph if they are truly not compatible with the new wires. If the 319s aren't available in time, there is always the 317/7s which Abellio Greater Anglia have stored as an interim or medium-term fix. I will be amazed if the Liverpool - Manchester lines receive new trains.

[wirralbus]

RE: Southern Trains
I will be trully amazed if any electric trains operate under the wires from Liverpool to Manchester and Wigan immediately on completion , the Thameslink trains order fiasco is seeing to that , they aint had financial close yet.