Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

[SF07]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester
Wigan timetables now on the Stagecoach website. Can found under Leigh, Manchester or Wigan at the bottom of the list (after the X69 and school services). Does look weird seeing First services in the Stagecoach timetable. Certainly hits home that the takeover is taking place.

[gilesbus1]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester
The vehicle situation has changed so I understand at least some of the cascaded Scottish Dart SLF's are not now coming to Wigan are instead going to Birkenhead and Chester, some more MAN's have been sourced from Manchester's own reserves and will go to Wigan, and further new vehicles are expected later in addition to the 14 already expected.

In regards to deckers that is an open question, what now seems possible is that a batch of Enviro400's as expected will cascade to Hull and possibly in return there batch of Plaxton President Tridents may go to Wigan, they where originally new to Manchester in anycase so the layout is right for TfGM contracts.

It is unlikely there will be any need for any further deckers as the openning of the Leigh Guided Busway in 2014 will mean all of the GEmini's become redundant then as its to be operated entirely by saloons and after that date Wigan will only have a need in terms of deckers for older ones for school work.

[gemini6491]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester

(29/11/2012 22:03)gilesbus1 Wrote:  The vehicle situation has changed so I understand at least some of the cascaded Scottish Dart SLF's are not now coming to Wigan are instead going to Birkenhead and Chester, some more MAN's have been sourced from Manchester's own reserves and will go to Wigan, and further new vehicles are expected later in addition to the 14 already expected.

In regards to deckers that is an open question, what now seems possible is that a batch of Enviro400's as expected will cascade to Hull and possibly in return there batch of Plaxton President Tridents may go to Wigan, they where originally new to Manchester in anycase so the layout is right for TfGM contracts.

It is unlikely there will be any need for any further deckers as the openning of the Leigh Guided Busway in 2014 will mean all of the GEmini's become redundant then as its to be operated entirely by saloons and after that date Wigan will only have a need in terms of deckers for older ones for school work.

That's your opinion for now, but who's to say stagecoach's lower prices and better running than first as well as new vehicles won't get people back on the buses in Wigan? I could see deckers working for the 600/540 routes if they get any busier than they currently are. No point speculating for now, time will tell and deckers will still be needed to operate the 32/33/x34 for the next few years. Also on the website with links posted previously by SF07, they state there will be 30 new buses and 30 cascaded buses initially.

[gilesbus1]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester

(29/11/2012 22:08)gemini6491 Wrote:  

(29/11/2012 22:03)gilesbus1 Wrote:  The vehicle situation has changed so I understand at least some of the cascaded Scottish Dart SLF's are not now coming to Wigan are instead going to Birkenhead and Chester, some more MAN's have been sourced from Manchester's own reserves and will go to Wigan, and further new vehicles are expected later in addition to the 14 already expected.

In regards to deckers that is an open question, what now seems possible is that a batch of Enviro400's as expected will cascade to Hull and possibly in return there batch of Plaxton President Tridents may go to Wigan, they where originally new to Manchester in anycase so the layout is right for TfGM contracts.

It is unlikely there will be any need for any further deckers as the openning of the Leigh Guided Busway in 2014 will mean all of the GEmini's become redundant then as its to be operated entirely by saloons and after that date Wigan will only have a need in terms of deckers for older ones for school work.

That's your opinion for now, but who's to say stagecoach's lower prices and better running than first as well as new vehicles won't get people back on the buses in Wigan? I could see deckers working for the 600/540 routes if they get any busier than they currently are. No point speculating for now, time will tell and deckers will still be needed to operate the 32/33/x34 for the next few years. Also on the website with links posted previously by SF07, they state there will be 30 new buses and 30 cascaded buses initially.

Well they will have a job considering the prices are stated as not changing????

Yes deckers may appear but if things stay as they are there is no need for new deckers.

The 16 other new buses are Enviro Enviro300's sourced from a diverted order from elsewhere.

The MAN's highlighted for transfer internally are from the S---TRJ/T---TND etc batches.

All Olympians and Arrows are not expected to last that long but will last initially until further vehicles are sourced.

[gemini6491]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester

(29/11/2012 22:23)gilesbus1 Wrote:  

(29/11/2012 22:08)gemini6491 Wrote:  

(29/11/2012 22:03)gilesbus1 Wrote:  The vehicle situation has changed so I understand at least some of the cascaded Scottish Dart SLF's are not now coming to Wigan are instead going to Birkenhead and Chester, some more MAN's have been sourced from Manchester's own reserves and will go to Wigan, and further new vehicles are expected later in addition to the 14 already expected.

In regards to deckers that is an open question, what now seems possible is that a batch of Enviro400's as expected will cascade to Hull and possibly in return there batch of Plaxton President Tridents may go to Wigan, they where originally new to Manchester in anycase so the layout is right for TfGM contracts.

It is unlikely there will be any need for any further deckers as the openning of the Leigh Guided Busway in 2014 will mean all of the GEmini's become redundant then as its to be operated entirely by saloons and after that date Wigan will only have a need in terms of deckers for older ones for school work.

That's your opinion for now, but who's to say stagecoach's lower prices and better running than first as well as new vehicles won't get people back on the buses in Wigan? I could see deckers working for the 600/540 routes if they get any busier than they currently are. No point speculating for now, time will tell and deckers will still be needed to operate the 32/33/x34 for the next few years. Also on the website with links posted previously by SF07, they state there will be 30 new buses and 30 cascaded buses initially.

Well they will have a job considering the prices are stated as not changing????

Yes deckers may appear but if things stay as they are there is no need for new deckers.

The 16 other new buses are Enviro Enviro300's sourced from a diverted order from elsewhere.

The MAN's highlighted for transfer internally are from the S---TRJ/T---TND etc batches.

All Olympians and Arrows are not expected to last that long but will last initially until further vehicles are sourced.

The prices are only fixed at their original first rate between now and the 6th of January at which point stagecoach will be introducing their own fare and ticketing system. These things take time, but I assume you are intelligent enough not to think they'd be sticking at First's ticket price range.

[gilesbus1]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester
Well lets look at it again, yes they may lower fares in real terms, by cutting them to teh same level as Stagecoach Manchester, but if you live in Leigh in real terms costs will be higher then as you will have to buy both operators tickets if you wish to travel accross town eg Lowton to Bolton or Atherton to Abram being examples, therefore passenger numbers may fall at that stage unless Stagecoach have ideas of running over them which I don't thing they do.

I would also in terms of your decker opinion say that the reason slaoons are used in anycase despite on some routes there being low numbers of travellers is because a significant proportion travellers in the Wigan area are of pension age. Deckers are used on Manchester services where it is practical to do so and as extra's. Regular running of them on services like the 600 and the 540 really wouldn't offer much advantage. However if there was ever an idea to merge up routes to offer something different then yes there may be a case. We aren't talking about the sort of high frequency routes that other First depots had that run into Mnachester where masses of deckers are needed on high frequency's if you look at the 600 most of the journeys between Leigh and Golborne on Monday to Friday day time run with half loads, hardly the ingreadance for a 12 minute decker service.

The real reason for Stagecoach's acquisition is strategic not about whats at Wigan now, and its a matter of waiting to see probably in future years what those plans are, and no I won't speculate on what they are as I have not the foggest idea, those are idea's that the Stagecoach Board and Manchester management team will know but no one else.

I would also add that its not been unusual to see buses on Wigan locals with loads of less than 5 on them at various times over recent years thats how bad things had got.

Stagecoach, yes can build on profitability so it pays but it will never be bringing in porfits and passengers other depots bring in for several reasosn which I will highlight as follows:-

1) Car usership is high in Wigan, Much of it because of the working age population, many work well beyond the boundarys of Wigan where its either impracticle to use a bus or its expense because of the number of changes required between different operators, something which will not get easier but in fact worse with Stagecoach's purchase as the number of operators in Wiagn will actually increase as First isn't totally eliminated from the Wigan MBC area.

2) Traffic is heavy in the Wigan area because of the number of cars, therefore bus usership is suffering.

3) Many passengers that do use services but not all are at age extremes either elderley or young pre car driving age.

4) Parts of Wigan are more affluent than other areas of Greater Manchester except say Trafford and perhaps parts of Stockport and Bolton.

5) Wiagn as an area is well spread out its not compact. The 658 route highlights this in that it passes through many area's that are semi-rural such as fields as it progresses between the two towns.

6) The amount of other operators in Wigan makes it harder and also confussing to intending passengers.

7) Large Supermarkets and Internet shopping have badly effected central Wigan and Leigh so the town centres have loads of vacant or low quality retailing in them. For example Leigh a town with about 43,000 now has four large superstores and two smaller ones of which only one of which are directly served by buses and when experiments to operate them have been carried outr by other opertators in the past they have failed, eg people see them for car users alone, also there are large numbers of taxi's going to them with nomne cvar users in them which illustrates that something is wrong.

8) The distribution of information on services is poor, yes people have the internet, and yes there are bus station travel shops and librarys, but it needs greater than that, eg Quarterly door to door colourful time tables and brochures being distributed to houses and also trial cupons, tahts the way you grow something.

9) As of the current moment no FirstGroup buses currently serve the local hospital in Wigan despite it only being litle more than 1 1/2 miles outside Wigan despite the route being hilly, it is left to Arriva to serve it. Hospitals asre a gopod place to pick up passengers.

While I welcome Stagecoaches purchase, I don't hold there optimism as much as they do and you seem to do, things will be extremely expensive and difficult to turn around and the growth rates won't be that big I suspect unless the route network is totally redrawn, similar in Chester and Rock Ferry, a new bus alone won't frankly make that much difference to none bus enthusiasts and the lower fares would have to be noticed before they would entice.

[gemini6491]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester

(29/11/2012 23:11)gilesbus1 Wrote:  Well lets look at it again, yes they may lower fares in real terms, by cutting them to teh same level as Stagecoach Manchester, but if you live in Leigh in real terms costs will be higher then as you will have to buy both operators tickets if you wish to travel accross town eg Lowton to Bolton or Atherton to Abram being examples, therefore passenger numbers may fall at that stage unless Stagecoach have ideas of running over them which I don't thing they do.

I would also in terms of your decker opinion say that the reason slaoons are used in anycase despite on some routes there being low numbers of travellers is because a significant proportion travellers in the Wigan area are of pension age. Deckers are used on Manchester services where it is practical to do so and as extra's. Regular running of them on services like the 600 and the 540 really wouldn't offer much advantage. However if there was ever an idea to merge up routes to offer something different then yes there may be a case. We aren't talking about the sort of high frequency routes that other First depots had that run into Mnachester where masses of deckers are needed on high frequency's if you look at the 600 most of the journeys between Leigh and Golborne on Monday to Friday day time run with half loads, hardly the ingreadance for a 12 minute decker service.

The real reason for Stagecoach's acquisition is strategic not about whats at Wigan now, and its a matter of waiting to see probably in future years what those plans are, and no I won't speculate on what they are as I have not the foggest idea, those are idea's that the Stagecoach Board and Manchester management team will know but no one else.

I would also add that its not been unusual to see buses on Wigan locals with loads of less than 5 on them at various times over recent years thats how bad things had got.

Stagecoach, yes can build on profitability so it pays but it will never be bringing in porfits and passengers other depots bring in for several reasosn which I will highlight as follows:-

1) Car usership is high in Wigan, Much of it because of the working age population, many work well beyond the boundarys of Wigan where its either impracticle to use a bus or its expense because of the number of changes required between different operators, something which will not get easier but in fact worse with Stagecoach's purchase as the number of operators in Wiagn will actually increase as First isn't totally eliminated from the Wigan MBC area.

2) Traffic is heavy in the Wigan area because of the number of cars, therefore bus usership is suffering.

3) Many passengers that do use services but not all are at age extremes either elderley or young pre car driving age.

4) Parts of Wigan are more affluent than other areas of Greater Manchester except say Trafford and perhaps parts of Stockport and Bolton.

5) Wiagn as an area is well spread out its not compact. The 658 route highlights this in that it passes through many area's that are semi-rural such as fields as it progresses between the two towns.

6) The amount of other operators in Wigan makes it harder and also confussing to intending passengers.

7) Large Supermarkets and Internet shopping have badly effected central Wigan and Leigh so the town centres have loads of vacant or low quality retailing in them. For example Leigh a town with about 43,000 now has four large superstores and two smaller ones of which only one of which are directly served by buses and when experiments to operate them have been carried outr by other opertators in the past they have failed, eg people see them for car users alone, also there are large numbers of taxi's going to them with nomne cvar users in them which illustrates that something is wrong.

8) The distribution of information on services is poor, yes people have the internet, and yes there are bus station travel shops and librarys, but it needs greater than that, eg Quarterly door to door colourful time tables and brochures being distributed to houses and also trial cupons, tahts the way you grow something.

9) As of the current moment no FirstGroup buses currently serve the local hospital in Wigan despite it only being litle more than 1 1/2 miles outside Wigan despite the route being hilly, it is left to Arriva to serve it. Hospitals asre a gopod place to pick up passengers.

While I welcome Stagecoaches purchase, I don't hold there optimism as much as they do and you seem to do, things will be extremely expensive and difficult to turn around and the growth rates won't be that big I suspect unless the route network is totally redrawn, similar in Chester and Rock Ferry, a new bus alone won't frankly make that much difference to none bus enthusiasts and the lower fares would have to be noticed before they would entice.

All of the points that you make are entirely valid but Arriva and SLT are two companies that have managed to have healthy, profitable networks in the Wigan area and I think if stagecoach put enough effort into reworking the network, lower fares and better advertising then they will see the results. First neglected Wigan and I think that Stagecoach can have a real chance if they go about things properly to cut into the network.

[ste]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester
When First took over there used to be loads of publicity taking place in Wigan. New vehicles were invested in, routes were expanded up on and even some new ones created ie 622. Then around 2002 I think it was they had a big restructure and a lot of routes got chopped and the investment in buses stopped. First used all of Giles' points above, however having grew up in that area I know a lot of people who have given the bus a chance and then gone "HOW MUCH!!!!!!!!" or "pay that much to have my bones rattled" etc. Result? They go back to the car. Look at the 582, that has a lot of passengers at OAP age, however good management and constant investment has seen the route thrive.

One thing Stagecoach did here when they took over Glenvale was reduce the fairs and invest in vehicles, and on face value looks to have paid dividends. If people see improvements at better prices they will use, but only if the publicity is right.

[gilesbus1]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester
Yes your quite right First did make mistakes in Wigan, just how profitable SLT is I would not like to comment on, I thing the profits are possibly no greater than what Firsts Wigan depot records its just SLT don't require the big margins FirstGroup require.

Arriva have most trunks, some as a result of deals between MTL and GMN and others from the former North Western operations, wether Stagecoach pay any attention to these might remain to be seen.

I think some growth might come from potential new routes or by extending existing ones. There is one question that I thing would make me think the growth might not be that grand and that is what is future of Chorley depot with such a large under utilised depot being really in its back yard, despite it being with another Stagecoach subsiduary.

Although I understand no existing plan is there, but it might be fairly tempting to exploit that situation in the interests of money to a major company like Stagecoach, especially as the premises in Chorley are far from ideal and also the fact that some work, eg School Contracts operate in Wigan in anycase. Then if you extend the Chorley Coppulls and Blackrods to Wigan then you've really emptied Chorley by abouut half, then if you then intertworked the 540's with the 125's and 126's you've then removed its profitability (You then get deckers on the 540 hence) and I am sure then the rest could move to Preston depot.

I think really though in terms of First the main issue was that Firsts core model of regular core routes and l;ittle else couldn't really suit Wigan, as those core routes couldn't return the same profitability levels of services like the 36, 37 at Bolton and the 135 at Bury and the 100, 67 and 17 at Manchester and the 82, 83, 59 etc at Oldham all of which have the advantage of going through significant urban areas to reach Central Manchester. Also the Wigan depot was some 20 miles away and also 15 minute train services linking it to central Manchester at a cheaper fair than FirstGroup where charging eg £3.80 as apose to £4.50 and taking a fraction of the time as well.

Hopefully the Leigh guided busway may help to readdress that, but there is local anamosity towards it so how successful it might be remains to be seen.

I think as well the fact the HQ was at Oldham didn't help as it was easy for those management staff often exiles from First West Yorkshire to ignore the Western side of Greater Manchester and not explore much beyond central Manchester but yet expect the same profit from what was a much smaller network and then question why it wasn't returning the profitability of towns like OLdham which have large numbers of core routes into Central Manchester plus the 409 to Ashton and Rochdale in addition.

Maybe a mistake was made in 1998 when FirstGroup closed Atherton in that it allowed lots of Leigh based operators to appear or expand to fill gaps left by FirstGroup, maybe a better idae would have been to close Wigan and move exverything to Atherton and then the depot would have had at least one extra profit point in the 582 and its retention might have detered SLT from entering the Market Place locally. However tahts all under the bridge now.

The Other thing I wonder is if local branding was allowed and a new fleet of Minibuses was introduced onto town routes in Wigan wether that might have changed things????

I also wonder what might have been the case if the buyer now wasn't Stagecoach and it had of been someone else without any networks anywhere near, or a smaller company???

Would that either mean no growth or beter growth as presumably much of the management team would have been at Wigan and Wigan only rather than at Manchester if you know what I mean eg outside the front door to the depot office rather than 20-30 miles away from the offices.

[ste]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester
On another note- it has been mentioned some buses have gone for repaints - are they getting reupholstered or are Stagecoach keeping the covers as they are for now?