£45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme

[E400]

£45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme
Starting this thread to pool people's opinion on this new scheme announced yesterday:

http://www.liverpoolexpress.co.uk/radica...ty-centre/

In my opinion, this sets a good precedent by putting a core focus on public transport right throughout the city centre, while making it perhaps more difficult to traverse the city centre in a private car.

The scheme outlines Queen Square bus station being used for all northbound services, while Liverpool ONE is used for southbound services. It also proposes swallowing the northbound lanes of Lime Street into a new public 'event space' at St George's Platau, reducing the contraflow to one lane either way along Lime Street.

There will also be the addition of a much needed coach station and bus layover space. The article does not state where this is, but from what I have read and from my understanding of the road layout changes on Lime Street (both by the Empire and down the Futurist end), St John's Lane will be made into this coach station. I think this because Lime Street at The Futurist will be open to southbound traffic only from Elliot Street with no road access to the other half of Lime Street from both Elliot Street or Renshaw Street. Blocking access from Lime Street to Whitechapel and Renshaw Street to cars will mean that the only reason for cars to be down there is to get into and out of St John's car park, giving buses almost exclusive use of Lime Street in both directions.

As for The Strand, this is proving to be quite controversial on social media, but this method of vastly reducing capacity on main routes has been used in cities around the world as a traffic management solution. For a couple of days after opening, it will cause massive congestion, but following that, people find their own new ways around the city using a multitude of other routes, and this vastly reduces traffic numbers on The Strand. It has also been found to increase public transport numbers, while making public transport more reliable due to the decreased traffic congestion. The only thing that bugs me here is the closure of Mann Island - it doesn't explain what is happening here, other than the loss of a junction with The Strand. I presume this will be pedestrianised, or this could also be the site of the aforementioned coach station, though this does not make for useful bus layover.

[motormayhem1]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme
I think mann island is becoming pedestrianised for events etc.

[MTL0201]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme
Read this earlier, reducing lanes on The Strand is barmy idea, it's busy enough as it is, & main route from North to South of the City without using the Queens Drive, not to mention main route from the Wallasey Tunnel to South of the City such as JLA. What they should be doing is sorting out the traffic lights, a lot of them are a right pain to get through, especially the ones by the Royal as you head towards Kensington, can wait through 3 cycles of lights to get past them.

[Barney]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme

(12/08/2016 14:27)MTL0201 Wrote:  Read this earlier, reducing lanes on The Strand is barmy idea, it's busy enough as it is, & main route from North to South of the City without using the Queens Drive, not to mention main route from the Wallasey Tunnel to South of the City such as JLA. What they should be doing is sorting out the traffic lights, a lot of them are a right pain to get through, especially the ones by the Royal as you head towards Kensington, can wait through 3 cycles of lights to get past them.

As a motorist I avoid that area like the plague except between the hours of 1-6am and friends and family who commute along The Strand tell me that it is quite often gridlock for most of the day, including Sunday. Clearly, the proposal to reduce the road capacity by 50% obviously won't help the situation.

The fundamental problem is that the public transport provision from north (Crosby) to south (Aigburth) of the city is totally inadequate. Yes, there is the Southport-Hunts Cross Merseyrail service but that is operating at near capacity with the oldest rolling stock on the former BR network with no prospect of new or more trains for at least eight years. Quite often just one failure throws the whole system into chaos.

There are many possible ways of mitigating the congestion in this area and the obvious - and cheapest - one is to provide a direct bus service along the route. Prior to deregulation, the 1 (Dingle to Seaforth) operated a five-minute frequency most of the day with additional peak hour 1A/E services to Netherton. Also, Ribble used to operate a peak hour L35 along Derby Road directly into town. Admittedly, these services ran at a time when the Liverpool docks and environs were bustling and that is no longer the case but there has been a huge increase in commuter and leisure traffic in recent times. If just 10% of commuters between Thornton and Aigburth took the option of a fast direct bus service to the Pier Head/Liverpool One it would ease the congestion greatly.

As for the proposal that dedicated bike lanes would ease the problem, get real. 70% of the time strong winds and heavy rain blow in off the Irish Sea. Would you give up your car for a bike?

[E400]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme
Many of the traffic lights are 'smart' and track traffic built-ups. They manage flows from all directions to minimise wider congestion. Traffic lights aren't the issue - traffic is.

[E400]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme

(12/08/2016 15:25)Barney Wrote:  As a motorist I avoid that area like the plague except between the hours of 1-6am and friends and family who commute along The Strand tell me that it is quite often gridlock for most of the day, including Sunday. Clearly, the proposal to reduce the road capacity by 50% obviously won't help the situation.

The fundamental problem is that the public transport provision from north (Crosby) to south (Aigburth) of the city is totally inadequate. Yes, there is the Southport-Hunts Cross Merseyrail service but that is operating at near capacity with the oldest rolling stock on the former BR network with no prospect of new or more trains for at least eight years. Quite often just one failure throws the whole system into chaos.

There are many possible ways of mitigating the congestion in this area and the obvious - and cheapest - one is to provide a direct bus service along the route. Prior to deregulation, the 1 (Dingle to Seaforth) operated a five-minute frequency most of the day with additional peak hour 1A/E services to Netherton. Also, Ribble used to operate a peak hour L35 along Derby Road directly into town. Admittedly, these services ran at a time when the Liverpool docks and environs were bustling and that is no longer the case but there has been a huge increase in commuter and leisure traffic in recent times. If just 10% of commuters between Thornton and Aigburth took the option of a fast direct bus service to the Pier Head/Liverpool One it would ease the congestion greatly.

As for the proposal that dedicated bike lanes would ease the problem, get real. 70% of the time strong winds and heavy rain blow in off the Irish Sea. Would you give up your car for a bike?

Drastic reduction of a road's capacity has been done in many cities around the world - Stockholm for example. Here, it has worked wonders by making people change their habits and daily routine. It generally sees people opt for public transport rather than their own car, which is a win-win ... the roads are clearer and the buses run better.

Liverpool's unique geography has meant that the city develops semi-circularly from it's centre. This has led to the formation of The Strand - a huge road terribly misplaced right through the heart of the busiest area of the city. This is something that you don't find in any other city in the UK, perhaps other than Belfast which has similar issues to Liverpool, though the issue here is not as great. It is very American by nature and is a product of this distorted municipal growth. Obviously The Strand has always been there because of the docks, but it should never have been allowed to take the form that it has today. It needs narrowing and streamlining. It is completely ridiculous to have an 8 lane road (where many people speed at 40mph) through such a pedestrian heavy area.

[mr t]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme
So if Liverpool One is for south bound and Queen Square is for northbound then how do you transfer between the 2???
Not everyone from the north just wants to go to Queen Square, how do people from the south get to the commercial district everyday? Its a 10 minute walk between the 2, and what if you have a pram, children or disabled? This was the reason the 10s/79s were put through to L1 and a lot of people do use this link. Then we a closure of Mann Island, where do all the buses go that are displaced from here? Which are mostly northern services and not welcome at L1? Where do these drivers and buses go for breaks? Dale Street and Castle Street and Cook Street and Victoria Street are already full.
It basically sounds like they have it in for buses, first lets get rid of bus lanes, lets reduce Dale St, lets reduce Castle Street, lets make North John St 2 way, lets make Queen Square, the busiest bus station in Europe, single file so you cant overtake other buses. Now lets reduce Lime Street even more, block Lime Street outside the Futurist, reduce The Strand, and everything will flow smoothly, honest. Absolute rubbish.
Every single road improvement scheme in town over the last 10 years under the "big dig" and CCMS, was meant to improve traffic flow and help people get from AtoB - the first to complete was outside the Adelphi and then reversing the direction of Skelhorne St the road outside Lime Street Station, and obviously closing the exit arm from Elliot Street across to Skelhorne Street - this used to be the way out of town for traffic, from here onto Copperas Hill and Russell Street, no hold ups at any time at that junction even during peaks, it used to be all free flowing... No lets make all the traffic use the length of Lime Street instead, and which as a result the same traffic now blocks Skelhorne Street waiting to come out, which wants to access the car park and the station, because the traffic lights have sequences of like 2 minutes a set because pedestrian is the new king. This then backs up along Lime Street/St Georges Place junction which also regularly gets blocked, and which was then narrowed from 3 to 2 lanes southbound, and 3 to 1 lane northbound. At the same time lets introduce a bus lane from the Adelphi to Elliot Street, a good idea obviously, but all the traffic that was using this 2 lanes originally was obviously displaced - where to? Oh Copperas Hill, which is also to be used by the traffic displaced from Skelhorne Street, or Great Charlotte Street and Elliot Street, which were used primarily by buses, again free flowing, but no longer. And now they want to close that bit outside Futuritst??? Hmm.
And so it went on - Dale Street 3 to 2 lanes, North John Street - lets make this 2 way theres loads of space, because they didnt want buses using Castle Street outside their town hall - so lets virtually pedestrianise Castle St too because we want lots of pretty street cafes instead. North John Street is way too narrow for 2 lanes of traffic plus 2 lanes of loading/parking, plus 2 pedestrian walkways - if something isnt parked perfectly straight, someone parks outside the hotel there or a van is loading, then it causes gridlock everyday.
Oh and lets also make Tithebarn Street 2way, and reduce that from 3 lanes to 1, with a contraflow bus lane that ended up only being used by 2 buses an hour, and then just the morning peaks because of the congestion it actually caused, leaving all the commuters from the business district trying to get home every night stuck trying to get out of car parks onto the said 1 lane of traffic with no buses around.
Then we come to The Strand - the current layout is not particularly bad, people know it and have got used to it - what is bad is the absolute pi** poor timing of traffic lights at every single junction that keeps traffic waiting for 90-120 seconds while trying to exit L1 bus station, and the car park and James Street/mann Island, and the tunnel exits. This is the root cause of the traffic congestion - when there is little or no traffic, or when all traffic has cleared one arm, they no longer change - they all do the full same sequence day and night regardless of traffic. I raised this with their relevant department to be told there are no problems showing on their systems - so as far as they are aware, every lights is functioning "normally"- even though I gave a list of about 30 junctions across the city, which are all doing the same thing, but never actually used to. It has only started this year, and after one of their computers for them being upgraded one night, failed - you may remember this being in the Echo and radio at the time as all junctions in the morning peak were caught up in the lights doing stupid timings. They have never been the same since, even though they have supposedly restore the original settings - why then do the lights for Queen Square and the car park entrance change all night long when there are no buses or cars in sight?! And why do the lights from Queen Square only let out 4 buses at at time now - someone tweeted this to Merseytravel the other week - their response - you need to ask the council! It is their bus station, they control the buses but just pass the buck as they always do, the same as they moved to Mann Island so can obviously see the mayhem buses have to endure at the junctions down there but nothing has been changed in buses favour, - the only thing they care about is the trains, no money for buses, but lets have new stations here there and everywhere.
So with this New Strand, i really dont hold out any hope - 4 lanes it should be the whole length! We have the 10000 seater arena plus conference arena events - where is this traffic going to down the Strand instead? Traffic still needs to get the car park there, and the Albert Dock, and the Pier Head, and to work, and into the heart of town, nothing they do will ever change motorists routes there is no alternatives except the single file Berry St/Renshaw St/Copperas Hill/Russel St/Seymour Street Which is already bumper to bumper.
Sadly we are victim of our own success - yes we have brought the City Centre back to life, but because literally every building has been brought back to use over recent years, we have endless apartments, hotels, shops and bars/restaurants, new apartment blocks, which all need parking all have deliveries, all need taxis, all have visitors, there is literally no where left for people to park or stop, and thus all these new single lane roads which were "the future" are no longer capable of handling the traffic anymore and most have been built with no requirement for parking included. Hotels were allowed to be built with 1 loading/unloading bay, Not to mention the indiscriminate parking day and night, taxis literally stopping and parking where they feel like, because there is not enough parking attendants and they all know they dont work weekends or nights or go the suburbs, so people can get away with what they want and no on challenges them, motorists sadly have no fear and are mostly selfish. Then when something happens on one of the roads it causes instant gridlock and because of all these hair brained ideas, there is no way of getting around the road.
We need a completely new traffic plan that doesnt include anymore widening of pavements or closing roads because they look prettier to our tourist, we need red routes more enforcement day and night, new bus only roads through the city centre seems as Merseytram didnt happen, so they dont affect normal traffic, we need bus lanes back, and we need every set of traffic lights revisited. Why not make some sort of underground tunnel across the city, from the m62, down to the Strand and the tunnels, and across town. We also need a park and ride site that is widely advertised, used and beneficial, we must be the only city that does not have one, South parkway is good as it gets but is always full and having 20 spaces at Merseyrail stations also doesnt count!

[Barney]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme

(12/08/2016 15:52)Enviro400 Wrote:  Drastic reduction of a road's capacity has been done in many cities around the world - Stockholm for example. Here, it has worked wonders by making people change their habits and daily routine. It generally sees people opt for public transport rather than their own car, which is a win-win ... the roads are clearer and the buses run better.

The fundamental difference between Stockholm and Liverpool is that public transport in Sweden is regulated and coordinated and the state recognizes the need to support it through taxation. If only it could happen here.

[mr t]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme

(12/08/2016 15:27)Enviro400 Wrote:  Many of the traffic lights are 'smart' and track traffic built-ups. They manage flows from all directions to minimise wider congestion. Traffic lights aren't the issue - traffic is.

No longer the case - this year they have stopped responding to traffic flows - go and watch every single junction in town - and you will see them doing the full sequence day and night - even to let just one car out of a junction. It will sit there first for like 30-60 seconds, with no traffic around, then when eventually it gets moving the lights will stay on green for another 30 seconds, while another car comes from somewhere else and again is forces to wait 30-60 seconds to go. Add this at every junction in town especially down The Strand, and that is were the queues come from. As soon as one arm clears, they should change to the next arm, but they dont they will stay on green for another 30 seconds while traffic builds up on the other arms.
If they are smart why does it take at least a whole minute for buses coming out of Liverpool one to The Strand, when there is no traffic around, then going from The Strand up James Street, again changes for James Street/Mann Island with no traffic approaching, same for Water Street, same for the tunnel exit/Tithebarn Street, same for King Edward Street and same for Great Howard Street, Then even the new lights on Leeds Street/Vauxhall Road and at Pall Mall change all night to no one.
Lime Street/Adelphi, Lime Street/Elliot St, Lime Street/St Georges Place, Lime St/London Road, London Road/Anson Street, St Johns Lane/Queen Square all do the same full changes and sequences day and night without any traffic.
But when i reported these they say there is not a problem showing up, but it is not just me and not just a one off! Theres also umpteen others across the suburbs I have noticed also doing it!

[mr t]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme

(12/08/2016 16:05)Barney Wrote:  The fundamental difference between Stockholm and Liverpool is that public transport in Sweden is regulated and coordinated and the state recognizes the need to support it through taxation. If only it could happen here.

The "through traffic" alternative across the city centre was banished from Lime Street northbound and Renshaw Street and Tithebarn Street and Great Croshall Street in the last Big Dig changes and actually told and advised to use The Strand and Leeds Street and Hunter Street/Low Hill instead.
What we should have done in the 80s which was part of the citys future plan was to make Russell Street and Clarence Street and Berry Street a dual carriageway which would have then linked into St Anne St/Hunter St at one end and Parliament Street/Park Lane the other. Thus there would have been no need to use The Strand or at least there was a suitable alternative. Instead they back tracked and never implemented this section and allowed building of houses here and there and no its landlocked so will never happen. As happened across town over the last 10 years buildings have come up and been replaced literally everywhere with no regard for traffic and travel, so there is little chance now of any roads being built widened or realigned for the future, the Hall Street is the last big road project we will see