QBP Liverpool and Wirral

[Neoplan N4009]

RE: QBP Liverpool and Wirral

(18/10/2012 18:20)px55efc Wrote:  

(18/10/2012 17:43)507009 Wrote:  Just to agree with what has been said above, I've used all of the QBPs in peak times now and the worst is the 86 by a country mile. It is simply woefully inadequate in terms of capacity. Arriva buses, as outlined, usually the only choice for most students, are less frequent and departing full throughout the day. I've seen Volvo B7TLs drive past the Liverpool Arts College stop as they are already completely full. It's a desperate situation, and don't get me started on the horrid "summer timetable".

The simple solution is to return the Arriva timetable to every five minutes, admittedly compromising the constant timetable Merseytravel continually boasts about. Stagecoach simply haven't done enough to address the capacity issues. If their allocations were entirely double deckers, it might be different.

I agree. Stagecoach buses on the 86 just dont have the capacity. Smaller darts have replaced slightly larger B10ble's, which have near enough gone anyway. The double deckers on the 86C dont help much, as most students take up the Arrivas.
Reinstating the Arriva service wouldnt compromise much, as the stagecoach buses would just 'fill in the gaps'.

Do the buses on the 86 just qualify for QBP as most routes have brand new buses, not nearly new. (55/06 arr, V/55 stg)

Don't quote me on this for sure but I think the Darts only just qualify for the QBP as they have a Euro 3 ? Engine so the emission's aren't as bad as what would be on a B10B which makes me wonder if re-engineering Tridents was partly to do with the QBP as well as fuel saving . However I agree completely with the comments made, in terms of quality I would much rather have a Renown even though that would
Breach the QBP. When Stagecoach took over GTL I would have expected them to have made the 86 route similar to the Wilmslow Road corridor in Manchester = Double Deck, high Frequency. Turns out I was wrong. I've noted on too many occasions the 86's having to leave 25+ passengers at Myrtle Street because buses are too full, for the QBP to work better not just for the 86 but for all routes involved, frequencies should not have been tampered with neither should have routes been withdrawn like the X11. For Stagecoach to comply with the QBP they should invest in Tri-axle or double deckers. There is no such thing as "routes don't justify deckers in Liverpool" otherwise we wouldn't have had deckers in the Merseybus/Corporation days. In my view of the situation

[wirralbus]

RE: QBP Liverpool and Wirral
In the Corporation / Merseybus days it was dont worry about the cost of the vehicles we are getting paid by the Government , they will shoulder the cost , now its different and every bus now has to pay its way out of operators own funds hence loads of single deckers and not as many double deckers , soon hybrids will have to be paid from operators own budgets after the initial funding from central government.

[First Class]

RE: QBP Liverpool and Wirral

(19/10/2012 05:30)wirralbus Wrote:  In the Corporation / Merseybus days it was dont worry about the cost of the vehicles we are getting paid by the Government , they will shoulder the cost , now its different and every bus now has to pay its way out of operators own funds hence loads of single deckers and not as many double deckers , soon hybrids will have to be paid from operators own budgets after the initial funding from central government.

You can almost bet that once the government funding dries up, bus companies won't be interested in putting their own money into their fleets.

When these Equality laws kick in proper, I suspect there will be a huge reduction in routes/frequency and a lot of independents will probably be unable to afford a new fleet.

On top of Equality Laws, you will start getting tighter and tighter EU pollution laws, meaning buses need continually adapting/replacing.

In the very near future, buses will become worthless once they are 10 years old. PTEs will ban them from their infrastructure, contracts etc. EU Law will probably mean they won't meet emission standards..

[wirralbus]

RE: QBP Liverpool and Wirral
You already have some of the emissions rules in London now with there LEZ area.

[px55efc]

RE: QBP Liverpool and Wirral
When Arriva and stagecoach both took over, aside from the 86 (in Arriva's case) most routes went from double deck to small darts, such as 20/21/19/14, but capacities show they can need it. The 79 is more comfortable double deck, and peak times so are most routes when stray Geminis appear.

I just don't feel the reality of traffic and numbers of passengers on Arriva's are taken account of properly on the 86.

Maybe the new engines in the tridents make them suitable for the qbp then, there's just not enough. I thought stagecoach would take Arriva on with double decks. I think they chose to flood the route with darts and cheap prices, but doesn't work under qbp...

[mbonwick]

RE: QBP Liverpool and Wirral
Stagecoach Tridents are Euro3, and exhaust traps take them up to Euro4 for particulates, which is the baseline requirement for the QBP IIRC.

Darts are Euro4 anyway, so meet it anyway.

I've said it many times before and I'll say it again; if loadings consistently justified single decks, or even doubles, you'd have them. The fact that you have darts means vehicles aren't full enough for long enough throughout the day.

[First Class]

RE: QBP Liverpool and Wirral

(20/10/2012 19:36)mbonwick Wrote:  Stagecoach Tridents are Euro3, and exhaust traps take them up to Euro4 for particulates, which is the baseline requirement for the QBP IIRC.

Darts are Euro4 anyway, so meet it anyway.

I've said it many times before and I'll say it again; if loadings consistently justified single decks, or even doubles, you'd have them. The fact that you have darts means vehicles aren't full enough for long enough throughout the day.

The loadings ARE consistently full.

The problem is that the likes of Stagecoach (and some other operators), will see no increase in revenue as a result of a higher investment into larger vehicles, because they know people will still cram on to the smaller, (and cheaper), vehicles they utilise.

Why do you think they had to introduce the 22/23 on the main section of the 20/21 corridor? People were getting particularly peeved at the lack of capacity throughout the day. If double deckers had been brought in, they wouldn't have needed the 22/23 capacity boost. At times, (usually Sundays or match days), the 130/210/250 buses were often full themselves when I used them. They already went from small single deckers (Darts) to larger single deckers (MAN) because capacity was not sufficient.

There is no incentive for Stagecoach to buy more expensive (larger) vehicles, because they have a fairly captive market who have no choice but to be on a cramped vehicle. The QBPs worsen this, because they just rely on Arriva to provide the additional capacity, without incurring any cost to themselves.

If a QBP has been introduced, it is because the demand for the routes warranted improvements. The reality of it is, Merseytravel had good intentions, but failed to deliver the improvements, and in some cases, made it worse through timetable rationalisation.

Bus passengers numbers continue to grow, but in most cases capacity does not rise at the same rate, and in some circumstances, is decreased.

You have to ask why Manchester seem to get a lot more investment in double decked vehicles, (despite having Metrolink etc), whilst Liverpool with very similar passenger numbers, have small single decks? Why did Stagecoach Merseyside get a handful of old double deckers, instead of brand new Deckers like other regions?

[cumbria0902150]

RE: QBP Liverpool and Wirral

(20/10/2012 20:57)First Class Wrote:  The problem is that the likes of Stagecoach (and some other operators), will see no increase in revenue as a result of a higher investment into larger vehicles, because they know people will still cram on to the smaller, (and cheaper), vehicles they utilise.

Why do you think they had to introduce the 22/23 on the main section of the 20/21 corridor? People were getting particularly peeved at the lack of capacity throughout the day. If double deckers had been brought in, they wouldn't have needed the 22/23 capacity boost. At times, (usually Sundays or match days), the 130/210/250 buses were often full themselves when I used them. They already went from small single deckers (Darts) to larger single deckers (MAN) because capacity was not sufficient.

There is no incentive for Stagecoach to buy more expensive (larger) vehicles, because they have a fairly captive market who have no choice but to be on a cramped vehicle. The QBPs worsen this, because they just rely on Arriva to provide the additional capacity, without incurring any cost to themselves.

If a QBP has been introduced, it is because the demand for the routes warranted improvements. The reality of it is, Merseytravel had good intentions, but failed to deliver the improvements, and in some cases, made it worse through timetable rationalisation.

Bus passengers numbers continue to grow, but in most cases capacity does not rise at the same rate, and in some circumstances, is decreased.

You have to ask why Manchester seem to get a lot more investment in double decked vehicles, (despite having Metrolink etc), whilst Liverpool with very similar passenger numbers, have small single decks? Why did Stagecoach Merseyside get a handful of old double deckers, instead of brand new Deckers like other regions?

Stagecoach Merseyside and Stagecoach Manchester aren't really comparable. Stagecoach are not the main player in Merseyside (Arriva are), whereas they are in Manchester. Merseyside has a fleet size approx 160 whereas Manchester has a fleetsize approx 630. Stagecoach have had control in Manchester for 17 years now, while they've only had 7 years in Liverpool, 10 years less time to drive up revenue to cover the cost of larger vehicles. Manchester is the largest region outside of London, which is generally why it gets a lot of investment, but even then investment has slowed in recent years, although their large investment in Hybrid's for their busiest, most profitable corridor (with higher QBP standards than the Merseytravel schemes) will upgrade the fleet a lot. Newcastle is more comparable on a size basis, but even then, North East were the most profitable Stagecoach region last year, beating Manchester.

In the 7 years Stagecoach have had operations in Merseyside, they've invested in new vehicles to the value of approxmately £20million, that is a hell of a lot of investment in only 7 years. Yes, the large, 75 strong fleet of Darts in 2005/6 was a cheap, quick fix to replace a lot of the old Glenvale vehicles, but it still doesn't deter from the fact it was such a large, and much needed investment, increasing low floor provisions on quite a large scale. It is very rare for a region to get 75 brand new buses in the space of a year! There isn't an unlimited pot of cash to constantly upgrade the fleet, so investment will come when it is financially possible to. If there was an unlimited pot of cash, and figures on paper weren't important, I'm sure Manchester would have lost all of their S, T and X reg MAN ALX300's a very long time ago! In general 13% of Stagecoach Merseyside's fleet is over 10 years old, whereas 20% of Manchester's is over 10 years old.

It is no secret that QBP's can LOWER an operators income, and operators aren't competing for fares. Fuel prices have increased a lot in recent years, adding further costs to Stagecoach's bill, while fares haven't risen to match the increases.

It isn't worth looking at the Stagecoach annual report on their website and asking why they make mega profits but haven't invested in new double deckers in Liverpool. Each Stagecoach depot, and region, is operated as an individual business as part of the Stagecoach group, if the depot makes the money, it can invest, if it doesn't, it can't. Route costings play a large part in decision making processes for Stagecoach, and there's minimum profit levels service groups need to meet. A standard, new double decker costs around £30,000 more compared to a standard single decker, with 82/86 being the only QBP group of services to not get new vehicles yet, the difference between Enviro300's and Enviro400's would be about £750k, which Stagecoach would have to meet through large fare increases, which would affect service profitability. Used double deckers from another region could be a possibility (if figures show they're needed, and are high enough to cover the cost), but it is dependant on availability. When Merseyside took the 9 ex-London Tridents, they were the only low floor double deckers available for them to have, newer second hand vehicles would be very reliant on the likes of Manchester getting an upgrade to transfer out Enviro400's, with a lot of competition from other region's to get their hands on them, other regions that might have more profitable services than Liverpool.

[M113 YKC]

RE: QBP Liverpool and Wirral

(20/10/2012 20:57)First Class Wrote:  Why do you think they had to introduce the 22/23 on the main section of the 20/21 corridor? People were getting particularly peeved at the lack of capacity throughout the day. If double deckers had been brought in, they wouldn't have needed the 22/23 capacity boost. At times, (usually Sundays or match days), the 130/210/250 buses were often full themselves when I used them. They already went from small single deckers (Darts) to larger single deckers (MAN) because capacity was not sufficient.

That's not true. The 22/23 were designed to be "Gillmoss Park and Ride" services, with Aintree University Hospital being one of their target customers (as a result of carpark issues within their facility). An extra two buses an hour on that corridor would hardly make any significant changes to the capacity on-board buses on the 20/21 (especially when they're Solos!), considering that most 20/21s are well-loaded before reaching Fazakerley.

I've seen buses on the 22 enter Liverpool a few times - I haven't seen more than about five people alight. I've also seen the 23 departing from Liverpool - again, the number of passengers on-board each bus that I've seen has been about than five (and I doubt that they were paying passengers...). I'm not sure on what the situation is like at the other end of the route (Gillmoss).

[First Class]

RE: QBP Liverpool and Wirral
It isn't really the passengers problem how the company runs the business. Bottom line is they make massive profits and should cross fund the subsidiaries, allowing the more profitable sectors to help those with less income.

Passengers don't generally care about the age of vehicles, emission standards or even QBPs, but they do care about if there is room on the bus.

Arriva pretty much has the majority of South Liverpool services, but Stagecoach has North Liverpool. The problem with North Liverpool is that there is no real competition, therefore no incentive for Stagecoach to improve the services.