Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

[SK15 GZG (Moderator)]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(06/03/2019 18:16)Brickmill Wrote:  Yes. It creates spikes in engineering needs eg a disproportionate number of buses needing refurbishment at the same time - although First and Stagecoach seem to get round the problem by simply not refurbishing buses at all.

That's why larger batches of vehicles are refurbished/maintained over a longer period of time

It isn't practical for a specific area to receive X amount of new buses each year. Eventually an operator the size of Arriva or Stagecoach will end up with a surplus of mid-life vehicles which they no longer have a use for

(06/03/2019 18:16)Brickmill Wrote:  More free market theory. Stagecoach Manchester "invested" in 10463-87, 10609/10 for the 201/203 in 2015 on this basis, but since late 2017, there have been many, many occasions when barely half the workings have been from this batch, with the rest made up of standard Enviro400s up to 11 years old. See also above referenced lack of refurbishment.,.. And no, I'm not talking peak times only.

No it isn't. It's inevitable that buses bought for one route will eventually be used on another route

[gilesbus1]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(06/03/2019 21:07)Y474 KNF Wrote:  That's why larger batches of vehicles are refurbished/maintained over a longer period of time

It isn't practical for a specific area to receive X amount of new buses each year. Eventually an operator the size of Arriva or Stagecoach will end up with a surplus of mid-life vehicles which they no longer have a use for


No it isn't. It's inevitable that buses bought for one route will eventually be used on another route

Illustrate this, I like Brickmill see no evidence of any refurbishment by any of the big three. I have also been told that one large operator specifically only paint what is easy to do, so if a bus has a dent they don't fix the dent and therefore don't repaint as its seen as cheaper not to bother, would you expect a car driver to leave a dent or a scratch in his car and not bother?

Also just better management of resources allows fleet investment on an annual basis to the right level, yes not every route can have new vehicles or repayments couldn't be made on loans etc... but just to leave it for 5 years and then buy 150 buses in one year is foolish as those vehicles then age and you can't replace any more for years in that area, which then is unappealing to passengers who then just walk eventually. Prior to deregulation the only operator AFAIK who had been silly enough to operate that policy was Salford Corporation in the 1950's by replacing around three quarters of its fleet over a three year period 1951-1954 that operator then couldn't have new buses for 9 years and also had to replace buses that were not at full life also, and still leaving a fleet which part was past its best into Selnec days.

[SK15 GZG (Moderator)]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(07/03/2019 00:29)gilesbus1 Wrote:  Illustrate this, I like Brickmill see no evidence of any refurbishment by any of the big three.

A number of Arriva North West buses have been fitted with e-leather seating and WiFi recently

(07/03/2019 00:29)gilesbus1 Wrote:  Also just better management of resources allows fleet investment on an annual basis to the right level, yes not every route can have new vehicles or repayments couldn't be made on loans etc... but just to leave it for 5 years and then buy 150 buses in one year is foolish as those vehicles then age and you can't replace any more for years in that area, which then is unappealing to passengers who then just walk eventually.

There are times where some areas need and receive more investment than others. Operators can only afford to buy a certain amount of new buses each year and they have to prioritise which area needs them the most

[robertclark125]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan
Stagecoach do try to spread investment out around the country, and not concentrate it on two or three big areas. As an example, East Scotland's Aberhill depot will, later this month, be receiving sixteen new E400MMCs, to replace both single and double deckers. First had a tendency, for a while, to concentrate investment in just the big well populated areas, and this led to other areas missing out. Just because Stagecoach Manchester is a big area with loads of people, doesn't mean it should always get the new vehicles all the time.

[Barney]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(07/03/2019 01:37)Y474 KNF Wrote:  A number of Arriva North West buses have been fitted with e-leather seating and WiFi recently


There are times where some areas need and receive more investment than others. Operators can only afford to buy a certain amount of new buses each year and they have to prioritise which area needs them the most

The whole issue of fleet replacement for both large and small operators should not be confined to this thread alone.

I will simply make these points. Until about 1980 the PTEs were able to invest in fleet renewal thanks to three factors. Firstly, there was a national trend to introduce OPO as a means of saving running costs. Secondly, they received a 50% reduction in the actual cost of each unit thanks to the New Bus Grant and thirdly successive central governments recognised that all forms of mass transit should be in the public domain.

Like it or not, both bus and train operation in this country is now in the hands of companies either quoted on the stock exchange or in the hands of foreign governments. Their whole raison d'etre is make a profit NOT to provide a service.

[Brickmill]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(07/03/2019 09:19)Barney Wrote:  The whole issue of fleet replacement for both large and small operators should not be confined to this thread alone.

I will simply make these points. Until about 1980 the PTEs were able to invest in fleet renewal thanks to three factors. Firstly, there was a national trend to introduce OPO as a means of saving running costs. Secondly, they received a 50% reduction in the actual cost of each unit thanks to the New Bus Grant and thirdly successive central governments recognised that all forms of mass transit should be in the public domain.

Like it or not, both bus and train operation in this country is now in the hands of companies either quoted on the stock exchange or in the hands of foreign governments. Their whole raison d'etre is make a profit NOT to provide a service.

Yes, but it is British legislation that has made it possible . I think the point about First M'cr and Arrival on the one hand and Stagecoach M'CR on the other is that the Former invested in peaks and troughs but since 2012 have virtually stopped spending on new buses unless the taxpayer is footing part of the bill. Stagecoach did invest steadily until 2017 but have now stopped. This and the other issues regarding cutting profitable service s to resource bus wars; failure to refurbish diesel Enviro400s; piecemeal tinkering with timetables; hiking fares on captive market routes and then blaming it on congestion on routes NOT seeing the same fare hikes and the utter joke that is vehicle allocation, have ALL come about since 2014/5. The only element of Stagecoach Manchester that has not deteriorated in that time is Driving Standards.

[Southernsofty]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan
Some thoughts on Manchesters proposed CAZ and funding.

The TfGM funding for 2017/18 = £1.5m
The TfGM funding for 2018/19 = £1.5m
The combined £3m is for 170 buses to be upgraded, I don't know the make up of the vehicles but this works out at an average of £17,647 per vehicle.

New proposal is that £29m is to be made available for the 'Clean Bus Fund' (Note, excludes coaches which are covered by a separate 'Clean Freight' fund).
Allowing for inflation, so 'rounding up' to an average of £18000 per bus, £29m would allow for @1611 buses to be upgraded.

I did a crude 'back of a fag packet' calculation (and my figures may be wrong/out of date):

Non Euro 6 bus fleets in Manchester: -
563 - Stagecoach
565 - First/Go Ahead - whoever buys Bolton & Oldham.
76 - Arriva Wythenshawe & Bolton.
105 - Rotala
18 - Selwyns - buses only, to expand?
105 - Rosso
12 - Jim Stones
39 - Stotts
Total = 1483
My figures will have missed some other fleets (very happy if someone can provide more accurate update)
Press release talks about upgrading Euro 4 & 5 vehicles, so Euro 3 buses have to be replaced?

If your one of those operators, why (euro 3 excepted) would you invest in new vehicles knowing that your existing fleet is going to upgraded with public funding?

[Brickmill]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(07/03/2019 10:02)Southernsofty Wrote:  Some thoughts on Manchesters proposed CAZ and funding.

The TfGM funding for 2017/18 = £1.5m
The TfGM funding for 2018/19 = £1.5m
The combined £3m is for 170 buses to be upgraded, I don't know the make up of the vehicles but this works out at an average of £17,647 per vehicle.

New proposal is that £29m is to be made available for the 'Clean Bus Fund' (Note, excludes coaches which are covered by a separate 'Clean Freight' fund).
Allowing for inflation, so 'rounding up' to an average of £18000 per bus, £29m would allow for @1611 buses to be upgraded.

I did a crude 'back of a fag packet' calculation (and my figures may be wrong/out of date):

Non Euro 6 bus fleets in Manchester: -
563 - Stagecoach
565 - First/Go Ahead - whoever buys Bolton & Oldham.
76 - Arriva Wythenshawe & Bolton.
105 - Rotala
18 - Selwyns - buses only, to expand?
105 - Rosso
12 - Jim Stones
39 - Stotts
Total = 1483
My figures will have missed some other fleets (very happy if someone can provide more accurate update)
Press release talks about upgrading Euro 4 & 5 vehicles, so Euro 3 buses have to be replaced?

If your one of those operators, why (euro 3 excepted) would you invest in new vehicles knowing that your existing fleet is going to upgraded with public funding?

You really figures may well be accurate although it means you have answered the question nobody else could in that Hybrid Euro5s are deemed as filthy as diesel Euro4/5 s so someone has been conned there. As regards Euro3s, I don't know how many such buses First have but it must be at least 141 B7RLEs as well as a couple of dozen smaller batches. Stagecoach had 14 this time last year but if another forum is correct - and it usually is - this will have increased to 23 by Easter. Not directly answering your question but there is still no guarantee that the £29 million will be made available and the clock is ticking. Finally, the lack of investment predates GMCA plans to ban Euro3s from specific corridors. Now that Whitehall have hijacked the entire agenda the problem has become far bigger.

[gilesbus1]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(07/03/2019 10:02)Southernsofty Wrote:  Some thoughts on Manchesters proposed CAZ and funding.

The TfGM funding for 2017/18 = £1.5m
The TfGM funding for 2018/19 = £1.5m
The combined £3m is for 170 buses to be upgraded, I don't know the make up of the vehicles but this works out at an average of £17,647 per vehicle.

New proposal is that £29m is to be made available for the 'Clean Bus Fund' (Note, excludes coaches which are covered by a separate 'Clean Freight' fund).
Allowing for inflation, so 'rounding up' to an average of £18000 per bus, £29m would allow for @1611 buses to be upgraded.

I did a crude 'back of a fag packet' calculation (and my figures may be wrong/out of date):

Non Euro 6 bus fleets in Manchester: -
563 - Stagecoach
565 - First/Go Ahead - whoever buys Bolton & Oldham.
76 - Arriva Wythenshawe & Bolton.
105 - Rotala
18 - Selwyns - buses only, to expand?
105 - Rosso
12 - Jim Stones
39 - Stotts
Total = 1483
My figures will have missed some other fleets (very happy if someone can provide more accurate update)
Press release talks about upgrading Euro 4 & 5 vehicles, so Euro 3 buses have to be replaced?

If your one of those operators, why (euro 3 excepted) would you invest in new vehicles knowing that your existing fleet is going to upgraded with public funding?

I will just make one point here, some of the Rosso fleet will never operate in Greater Manchester so would not be effected in needing to be modernised or replaced, also the Diamond fleet has been cut since those figures and now would not exceed around 85 vehicles. Also lets not forget Coach operators in Greater Manchester, their vehicles would need to be modified as well in fleets like Grayway, Tyrers, Bullocks, Olympia, Mayne, Finch etc and wether or not out of a seperate freight fund still need to be done.

[Barney]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(07/03/2019 10:02)Southernsofty Wrote:  Some thoughts on Manchesters proposed CAZ and funding.

The TfGM funding for 2017/18 = £1.5m
The TfGM funding for 2018/19 = £1.5m
The combined £3m is for 170 buses to be upgraded, I don't know the make up of the vehicles but this works out at an average of £17,647 per vehicle.

New proposal is that £29m is to be made available for the 'Clean Bus Fund' (Note, excludes coaches which are covered by a separate 'Clean Freight' fund).
Allowing for inflation, so 'rounding up' to an average of £18000 per bus, £29m would allow for @1611 buses to be upgraded.

I did a crude 'back of a fag packet' calculation (and my figures may be wrong/out of date):

Non Euro 6 bus fleets in Manchester: -
563 - Stagecoach
565 - First/Go Ahead - whoever buys Bolton & Oldham.
76 - Arriva Wythenshawe & Bolton.
105 - Rotala
18 - Selwyns - buses only, to expand?
105 - Rosso
12 - Jim Stones
39 - Stotts
Total = 1483
My figures will have missed some other fleets (very happy if someone can provide more accurate update)
Press release talks about upgrading Euro 4 & 5 vehicles, so Euro 3 buses have to be replaced?

Seriously, have you thought of applying for Chris Grayling's or Nusrat Ghani's job which, hopefully, will both become available soon? You certainly seem to have a better handle on the situation than they do.