Remaining Independents in Merseyside

[MPTE1955]

RE: Remaining Independents in Merseyside
Ultimately any start up company will be swamped by the big boys on any routes that are worth bothering with. The big boys saver tickets such as daily/weekly etc make things difficult for independents. Once again, we have the idealistic views of people on here that think things can be set up easily, these is not the old days when there was a plethora of old buses that could be picked up and used, this is due to ddaUltimately any start up company will be swamped by the big boys on any routes that are worth bothering with. The big boys saver tickets such as daily/weekly etc make things difficult for independents. Once again, we have the idealistic views of people on here that think things can be set up easily, these is not the old days when there was a plethora of old buses that could be picked up and used, this is due to dda, vehicles being more complex and not as well made as those of the past. I also think those with idealistic views should do it themselves.

In relation to GTL taking CMT, when stagecoach took over there was quite a few newer vehicles in pieces that stagecoach had to put back together due to GTL not being able to fix them due to costs. So cannibalisation was happening with newer vehicles.

[iMarkeh]

RE: Remaining Independents in Merseyside
I am not going to say much as it could start arguments and I don't want that but the point I was making is that Birmingham has lots of little independants who only run a few routes (Bagna, Claribels, Let's Go plus others). Greater Manchester has a few companies who run smaller routes (Jim Stones). Many areas have little independants who run commercial routes which 'big boys' don't want to run. A good example (and only one really) is HTL. They have the 258 and 159 commercially as well as the Mon-Fri 166/188. Based on what has been said in the previous 2 replies, Stagecoach or Arriva should be on these routes or they shouldn't be running as they aren't worth it. Clearly they are worth it for HTL or they wouldn't be ran commercially. Regardless of what you think about any company, if they see a route worth running commercially, go for it. Everyone has different levels of what is and isn't viable and it will be based on many factors. Almost all of D&G is based on taking ex Arriva or Stagecoach routes and trying to make use of them with a few of their Staffordshire routes running between schools. Just because a big company doesn't run it, it doesn't mean it isn't viable. That is all I will say. No arguments. Just explaining my point.

[MTL0201]

RE: Remaining Independents in Merseyside

(25/02/2019 13:48)mr t Wrote:  And what other services do you propose running in Merseyside that only run 9 til 2? that can fill buses up!- hardly time for ANY route to make any money making local links that cost money to run and might get 1 or 2 people on who would probably be OAPs given most are in school or in work! As for any startups people no longer want to grow up and run as bus company plus they need to find depot, maintenance facilities, vehicles, drivers and have financial backing, so where do you propose they find all that in this day and age along with minimal reward from Merseytravel for tickets and contracts getting chopped, the great myticket that halved under 16s revenue, and the national OAP passes that started last 8 years which actually fill your buses up you think are always busy and making profits day in day out, and less fuel revenue, minimum wage increases and insurance, - the exact reason why so so many companies have gone to the wall across the country over the last 8 years, even First Manchester/Chester/Wirral, and depots shrinking also because of the cost of replacing older vehicles with newer DDA standard which is the law now- - I really want to know, as im sure everyone else on here does, how on earth you plan to run your company and make so much money that you always go on about is out their for companie are missing out on day after day, so you can take on Arriva and Stagecoach in every other post on here - you seem to know everything so go do it yourself and show us and the other companies how to do it, fill alllll these gaps in Merseyside & Cheshire with your full buses, that you go on about in every thread

Well said, it's one thing being an enthusiast, but he comes across as knowing better than the companies, a route operates because it has a cash flow, local authorities plug the gaps were they think any service might be socially necessary.

[iMarkeh]

RE: Remaining Independents in Merseyside

(25/02/2019 16:28)MTL0201 Wrote:  Well said, it's one thing being an enthusiast, but he comes across as knowing better than the companies, a route operates because it has a cash flow, local authorities plug the gaps were they think any service might be socially necessary.

That is not my intention. Possibly just how I write the posts. It is quite common for me to be misinterpreted. What sounds ok in my head doesn't always make sense to others but that is fair enough as everyone interprets things differently.

I don't see why people have so little faith in new routes. Perhaps that is why the bus industry is failing as everyone has such a negative view. If no one started new routes, you would never know what is viable and what gaps in the market could be found to work. If everyone had the same view, firstly, life would be boring but also, nothing would be started up.

Anyway, back to topic.

[robertclark125]

RE: Remaining Independents in Merseyside
When I mentioned Glenvale and CMT earlier, what I was meaning was, if Glenvale had not taken over CMT, and CMT was still independent, you may have then had a third force on Merseyside. CMT had a better public perception than what Glenvale had, and also, during the three year ban, imposed by the MMC, on Arriva registering over Glenvale routes, Glenvale decided to launch copycat routes over other Arriva routes, rather than try and consolidate what they already had, and spend money on improving their lot, and gradually expanding.

CMT was a largely successful independent. That's one reason why Glenvale bought it. If CMT had stayed independent of Glenvale, things would've been different. I do think CMT would've been the one buying up others, such as Formby based ABC, possibly even Cumfybus. But, that's only my thoughts, and in the end, we'll never know.

[buses7675 (Website Founder)]

RE: Remaining Independents in Merseyside

(25/02/2019 17:26)robertclark125 Wrote:  .... I do think CMT would've been the one buying up others, such as Formby based ABC, possibly even Cumfybus. But, that's only my thoughts, and in the end, we'll never know.

CMT DID buy ABC Travel!

I think they bought ABC Travel in 1999 as the last Solo delivered to ABC Travel ended up with a normal T reg plate (T552ADN from memory) rather than an ABC plate like all the others.

[Raawwwrrr!]

RE: Remaining Independents in Merseyside

(25/02/2019 15:31)iMarkeh Wrote:  I am not going to say much as it could start arguments and I don't want that but the point I was making is that Birmingham has lots of little independants who only run a few routes (Bagna, Claribels, Let's Go plus others). Greater Manchester has a few companies who run smaller routes (Jim Stones). Many areas have little independants who run commercial routes which 'big boys' don't want to run. A good example (and only one really) is HTL. They have the 258 and 159 commercially as well as the Mon-Fri 166/188. Based on what has been said in the previous 2 replies, Stagecoach or Arriva should be on these routes or they shouldn't be running as they aren't worth it. Clearly they are worth it for HTL or they wouldn't be ran commercially. Regardless of what you think about any company, if they see a route worth running commercially, go for it. Everyone has different levels of what is and isn't viable and it will be based on many factors. Almost all of D&G is based on taking ex Arriva or Stagecoach routes and trying to make use of them with a few of their Staffordshire routes running between schools. Just because a big company doesn't run it, it doesn't mean it isn't viable. That is all I will say. No arguments. Just explaining my point.

Arriva DID run the 258... and it flopped.
The route was an extended version called the 21. A combination of the current 258 and 248 and a renumbering on the Liverbus 258 (Prescot - Huyton - Stockbridge).

Arriva withdrew the route and it was replaced by Merseytravel contracts as the 258 and 248. (The 248 operating as an evening and Sunday service due to duplication of the 61). The 258 fell to Norbus initially and latterly became ran by HTL who commercialised it with part-funding from Merseytravel.

[motormayhem1]

RE: Remaining Independents in Merseyside
Arriva run the 21 at the same time as the 258 as norbus use to run just in front of us when I use to work at arriva huyton depot as it use to run huyton bus station to Stockbridge village at the time when I was there.

[CKC 312L]

RE: Remaining Independents in Merseyside

(25/02/2019 12:44)motormayhem1 Wrote:  I thought HELMS/ACL had a depot near maghull?

They also have a depot in Eastham which is the old Helms of Eastham depot

[Y458 KNF]

RE: Remaining Independents in Merseyside
With the sad demise of Halton last week it’s got me wondering how long will the remaining Merseyside independents last it proves that anyone can go bust.