£45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme

[E400]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme

(12/08/2016 16:06)mr t Wrote:  No longer the case - this year they have stopped responding to traffic flows - go and watch every single junction in town - and you will see them doing the full sequence day and night - even to let just one car out of a junction. It will sit there first for like 30-60 seconds, with no traffic around, then when eventually it gets moving the lights will stay on green for another 30 seconds, while another car comes from somewhere else and again is forces to wait 30-60 seconds to go. Add this at every junction in town especially down The Strand, and that is were the queues come from. As soon as one arm clears, they should change to the next arm, but they dont they will stay on green for another 30 seconds while traffic builds up on the other arms.
If they are smart why does it take at least a whole minute for buses coming out of Liverpool one to The Strand, when there is no traffic around, then going from The Strand up James Street, again changes for James Street/Mann Island with no traffic approaching, same for Water Street, same for the tunnel exit/Tithebarn Street, same for King Edward Street and same for Great Howard Street, Then even the new lights on Leeds Street/Vauxhall Road and at Pall Mall change all night to no one.
Lime Street/Adelphi, Lime Street/Elliot St, Lime Street/St Georges Place, Lime St/London Road, London Road/Anson Street, St Johns Lane/Queen Square all do the same full changes and sequences day and night without any traffic.
But when i reported these they say there is not a problem showing up, but it is not just me and not just a one off! Theres also umpteen others across the suburbs I have noticed also doing it!

Some of them such as the St John's Lane and Lime Street lights are all part of a much larger synchronised system, which is why they appear to run through the cycle. Instead, what is happening is one light may be triggered and then in order to maintain sequence (designed to increase flow during congestion), the lights will seemingly change for no-one. This is a trade-off which unfortunately works against free-flow at night/quiet times, but works brilliantly during peak times. Other junctions which are standalone are 'smart' and respond to external triggers. Older junctions (generally the ones without pedestrian crossings) are get to timed sequences.

Smart traffic systems are much more complex than you'd think. The latest developments (not for Liverpool, but generally) are working on processing bus GPS and timetable data to work out which services require priority passage, then mixing this with traffic data and data from all the sensors within the system in order to work out which lights to trigger and for how long. It is clever stuff, all designed for good traffic flows and minimum congestion to all road users.

[mr t]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme

(12/08/2016 16:24)Enviro400 Wrote:  Some of them such as the St John's Lane and Lime Street lights are all part of a much larger synchronised system, which is why they appear to run through the cycle. Instead, what is happening is one light may be triggered and then in order to maintain sequence (designed to increase flow during congestion), the lights will seemingly change for no-one. This is a trade-off which unfortunately works against free-flow at night/quiet times, but works brilliantly during peak times. Other junctions which are standalone are 'smart' and respond to external triggers. Older junctions (generally the ones without pedestrian crossings) are get to timed sequences.

Smart traffic systems are much more complex than you'd think. The latest developments (not for Liverpool, but generally) are working on processing bus GPS and timetable data to work out which services require priority passage, then mixing this with traffic data and data from all the sensors within the system in order to work out which lights to trigger and for how long. It is clever stuff, all designed for good traffic flows and minimum congestion to all road users.

Absolute rubbish, they all used to work fine until this year, they cant be very "smart" given there are still queues daytimes peaks and evenings when there shouldnt be and traffic stops/starts all along Lime Street and The Strand and buses are constantly stopped at junctions for no reason, not very eco friendly, We dont need anymore fancy sensors on them, just for them to work correctly again like last year. There is no trigger for Queen Square bus station when its shut! OR the car park, and even the arm for the Royal Court changes to itself! There is a blip in the system software, There used to be 2 settings for junctions - simply for peak and off peak, so what has happened and what is wrong with these. There are junctions I travel through which I used to get through all green on my way home from town and have done for years, now i get stopped by at least 4 junctions (depending which route) which are doing there own standard thing all day and all night and no cars on the other arms anywhere to be seen, same as if I go shopping I notice there are umpteen others also doing it that never used to. This is not normal, but there is also "no problem"!? Absolutely pants. It is only since the computers were upgraded over night some months ago that they have gone absolutely awful. So please lets downgrade the computers back! We used to just be able to slow down approaching junctions knowing that in most places they would change as soon as you approach the stop line, now we have to stop, huff an puff, change radio stations, send a quick text message on phone and check our hair in the mirror, and then they might change. This is what causes stress and impatientness when driving, and jumping lights because people dont wanna wait another 2 minutes for them to change again.

[motormayhem1]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme
The ones at L1 going onto the strand from the bus station are a complete joke , as you can have upto 5 or 6 buses trying to get through only for it to let 2-3 buses out at a time but yet the main stretch sees there lights stay on green for ages.

[mr t]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme

(12/08/2016 17:05)motormayhem1 Wrote:  The ones at L1 going onto the strand from the bus station are a complete joke , as you can have upto 5 or 6 buses trying to get through only for it to let 2-3 buses out at a time but yet the main stretch sees there lights stay on green for ages.

Exactly there is no traffic around and the lights make you wait for at least a minute, sure I counted to 90 seconds one time on a 79, Just sitting there wasting time. And then the ones behind have to wait 3 minutes by the time they change again for them.
The right filter lane from The Strand into the bus station changes every phase with nothing there, theres only the 82A and 500 that use it.
I dont get why more people especially Arriva and Stagecoach havent reported the lights malfunctioning it is most definitely not just me when I talk to loads of people, they have all noticed but no one complains

[motormayhem1]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme
I think all bus drivers will 100% agree with you MR T as i do , as our 10 on a night that goes to liverpool one gets a maximum of 3 mins turn around,thats dropping off , setting up and picking up at the stand.
After that we sit at the lights for roughly about 2-3 mins as ive noticed sometimes the sequence can miss the bus station exit lights out sometimes which by then we can be upto 6 mins late leaving the bus station.

[Bevan Price]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme
The best thing they cpuld do with most of the traffic lights is to drive a bulldozer through them. Look at any traffic queue and observe how many of them originate at a set of unnecessary, or poorly phased traffic lights. Those in the Lime Street, St. Johns Lane & Queen Square areas could all be removed and replaced by a few zebra crossings. Also, they should get rid of all the pedestrian barriers in Queen Square, and allow 2 buses to use each stop simultaneously, instead of the 2nd having to wait ages whilst the 1st bus loads/unloads.

These actions would largely eliminate bus queues in this area. But of course, the "experts" in charge of roads will claim that they always know better, and everybody else is wrong.

And these problems are not just confined to Liverpool - in the past few years, there seems to have been a national fad that traffic lights solve most of the congestion problems and/or make things safer, whereas the opposite is often true. (e.g. how many times do you see people turning right after the lights are reverting to red, simply because it can be almost impossible to turn right in the "green" phase.)

[mr t]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme
Liverpool Council seem absolutely obsessed with traffic lights, Half of them could easily be replaced by roundabouts or simple junctions, not to mention the puffin crossing malarky and the "all green phase" for pedestrians at junctions these days. Get rid of them and put zebras back along the main roads every few 100 metres and people will stop for them and let them go, there is us vs them culture at the moment and as soon as traffic lights turn green and if anyone is still crossing the road then drivers just rev at them and drive off anyway rather than the old way of just simply giving way. It works so well abroad, cars slow down at zebras and by the time they approach you have already crossed the road.

[Metroline1511]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme
I just wonder whether approval of this scheme, if forthcoming, will have to be decided by the new Metro Mayor elected next year?

[wirralbus]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme

(12/08/2016 19:57)mr t Wrote:  Liverpool Council seem absolutely obsessed with traffic lights, Half of them could easily be replaced by roundabouts or simple junctions, not to mention the puffin crossing malarky and the "all green phase" for pedestrians at junctions these days. Get rid of them and put zebras back along the main roads every few 100 metres and people will stop for them and let them go, there is us vs them culture at the moment and as soon as traffic lights turn green and if anyone is still crossing the road then drivers just rev at them and drive off anyway rather than the old way of just simply giving way. It works so well abroad, cars slow down at zebras and by the time they approach you have already crossed the road.

Now the size of the junction will dictate whether a roundabout is feasible , some very large roundabout's become a problem in there own right and need traffic lights to control traffic , so back to square one , the mini-roundabout fad is also dangerous seen many a near-miss on them things.

[E400]

RE: £45m Liverpool City Centre Transport Scheme

(13/08/2016 20:55)wirralbus Wrote:  Now the size of the junction will dictate whether a roundabout is feasible , some very large roundabout's become a problem in there own right and need traffic lights to control traffic , so back to square one , the mini-roundabout fad is also dangerous seen many a near-miss on them things.

On the subject of traffic lights at roundabouts: what do people think to part-time traffic lights on the Queensway roundabout which only kick in when traffic backlogs past a certain point in the tunnel?

This isn't part of the plans but I know it has been toyed with by the council.