MPTE Walrus Smart Card

[T42 PVM (Moderator)]

RE: MPTE Walrus Smart Card
TFGM have also tried to make their own version, at least they had the sense to walk away from the contracted company when it became clear they did not have a clue

[Barney]

RE: MPTE Walrus Smart Card

(14/10/2015 09:43)Enviro400 Wrote:  Why have Merseytravel gone about developing their own card system if the TfL system is so efficient and great? Surely it would make sense for Merseytravel to work with TfL on deploying a scaled-back version of Oyster on Merseyside? It isn't like they are in competition, and TfL could recover some of their development costs, especially if the Oyster 'model' was the standard across the country. It seems strange that Merseytravel have gone to all the trouble to build something from the ground-up when there is a working system elsewhere which could be adapted to other areas.

That is a good question. A relative of mine works for TfL and, from what she tells me, I get the impression that the Oyster card was developed at great cost to the tax payer but only for the benefit of the travelling public of London. The idea of sharing intellectual property and rolling it out across the country was never going to happen as the Treasury considers this far too ambitious and expensive for those of us living outside of the M25. Remember, we are all in this together.

[R557 ABA]

RE: MPTE Walrus Smart Card

(14/10/2015 09:43)Enviro400 Wrote:  Why have Merseytravel gone about developing their own card system if the TfL system is so efficient and great? Surely it would make sense for Merseytravel to work with TfL on deploying a scaled-back version of Oyster on Merseyside? It isn't like they are in competition, and TfL could recover some of their development costs, especially if the Oyster 'model' was the standard across the country. It seems strange that Merseytravel have gone to all the trouble to build something from the ground-up when there is a working system elsewhere which could be adapted to other areas.

Purely because the Oyster is already dated, they're already seeking to replace infrastructure put in place when the scheme was first implemented.

[E400]

RE: MPTE Walrus Smart Card

(14/10/2015 12:23)R557 ABA Wrote:  Purely because the Oyster is already dated, they're already seeking to replace infrastructure put in place when the scheme was first implemented.

The infrastructure wouldn't have been an issue for us if we had implemented Oyster's new infrastructure from the word go. At the end of the day the system is the same - it's a database of card numbers and expiry dates, that will not change much, it's just the ticket machines, points of sale and the cards themselves that will change.

[CX54 DKD (Moderator)]

RE: MPTE Walrus Smart Card
Tyne & Wear, Nexus, have a working system too for their Metro. With their system I can, and do, even load my monthly pass onto my university ID card thus reducing the number of cards I'm carrying around. In no way is it any sort of retrograde to using paper tickets, it's massively better and more convenient as a passenger so I completely refuse to take on board postings here suggesting otherwise. It's teething issues surrounding staff training, passenger usage and hardware without the necessary updates causing problems on Merseyside and it will be rectified. It'll be interesting to see how passenger opinion changes once current issues are ironed out; I significantly doubt many would still want to go back.

The cost to alter the Oyster system could have been comparable to or even more than Merseytravel developing a bespoke solution. Software engineering is not cheap and, believe it or not, the most expensive part of a development cycle is the ongoing support and modification of the system. If there's even a slight difference in the way the systems need to operate (and there will be, it's not just a database which connects to everything), it quickly becomes unfeasible to modify existing systems and cheaper to develop something new - whether that should be a joint project with other PTE's around the country is a different discussion). Let's not forget how quickly hardware and software become outdated as well and in addition, be aware that a system written in a now outdated or lowly adopted language is as good as worthless (cost implications, lack of programmers etc.) so there's just a few more reasons not just to adopt something which has been working elsewhere for a prolonged period.

[Valandil]

RE: MPTE Walrus Smart Card

(14/10/2015 16:53)CX54 DKD Wrote:  Software engineering is not cheap and, believe it or not, the most expensive part of a development cycle is the ongoing support and modification of the system. If there's even a slight difference in the way the systems need to operate (and there will be, it's not just a database which connects to everything), it quickly becomes unfeasible to modify existing systems and cheaper to develop something new - whether that should be a joint project with other PTE's around the country is a different discussion). Let's not forget how quickly hardware and software become outdated as well and in addition, be aware that a system written in a now outdated or lowly adopted language is as good as worthless (cost implications, lack of programmers etc.) so there's just a few more reasons not just to adopt something which has been working elsewhere for a prolonged period.

At the risk of you refusing to accept this post (:P), your second paragraph seems to contain many reasons why paper tickets are superior, to my mind at least.
Why overcomplicate things with all this software, upgrades and most of all not being able to just walk onto a bus in any region of the country without filling in an application form, having a photo taken etc. first!

[CX54 DKD (Moderator)]

RE: MPTE Walrus Smart Card
Paper tickets are easily lost or damaged, easily misused (see posts by other members earlier on in the thread), become more expensive to continue to produce once smart card infrastructure is in place and working and are not as easily available or updatable for the end-user. Yes, a smart card may require some initial paperwork but then so did the old Solos etc.

A smart card system allows the user to (potentially, I'm not sure whether or not Walrus is introducing this at this stage) top up online at their convenience, top up wherever is convenient for them as opposed to having to visit a travel shop, pay with a card and less easily loose or damage their card. It also has low distribution costs after initial introduction and offers better revenue protection by requiring electronic validation.

My quoted paragraph is trying to provide some reasoning as to why using an outdated system is a poor choice over investing in a newer/bespoke solution, not promoting the use of paper tickets. It also focuses heavily on the cost of that which is why I suspect it gives you the implication it has. Bear it mind that any sort of new system, whether digital or not, has cost implication from design to final production & distribution.

I agree that a national solution may well have been better but we are where we are and we have to work from there - a national initiative is unlikely with TfL looking to reinvest in Oyster, Merseytravel ploughing money into Walrus alongside every other PTE's initiatives. I'd be inclined to disagree that introducing the new systems overcomplicate anything and as I mentioned in my previous post, I find it much easier just to tap my smart card on a reader at each end of my journey on the Tyne & Wear Metro than having to queue for a paper ticket. It's also much quicker of a morning peak to be able to do so as the queue for paper tickets can be horrendous. So for Merseytravel to be introducing a similar system, is a definite step in the right direction to me and I'm confident to users of their network once things settle down.

[wirralbus]

RE: MPTE Walrus Smart Card
The smart card technology maybe on the buses in a haphazard way , but the railway stations dont have it yet and there is where the present Walrus system falls over .