Merseyside Night Buses

[Barney]

RE: Merseyside Night Buses

(24/08/2016 17:50)CX54 DKD Wrote:  It's just as uni students, including Freshers, come back to the city though. With a good presence at the various events run throughout freshers week, I think it's a perfectly acceptable period to judge demand over and for passengers (the majority of which will be the aforementioned university students) to get used to it.

Contrary to popular belief, most students aren't stupid and are financially shrewd. If just a few hundred of them realise that they can use their weekly or monthly passes on the 86/86A instead of paying for a taxi ride home, I envisage an increased frequency before Christmas.

The same argument applies to those people who live on the Wirral who, at the moment, are forced to pay a tenner just to get through the tunnel to Birkenhead.

[mr t]

RE: Merseyside Night Buses

(24/08/2016 20:24)Barney Wrote:  Contrary to popular belief, most students aren't stupid and are financially shrewd. If just a few hundred of them realise that they can use their weekly or monthly passes on the 86/86A instead of paying for a taxi ride home, I envisage an increased frequency before Christmas.

The same argument applies to those people who live on the Wirral who, at the moment, are forced to pay a tenner just to get through the tunnel to Birkenhead.

But the sad thing is if everyone with passes use them they will not make any money, and thus still get withdrawn being deemed unprofitable, the drivers wages still need paying out of any takings, £20 an hour for Stagecoach I believe and well over £30 for Arriva

[Barney]

RE: Merseyside Night Buses

(24/08/2016 20:47)mr t Wrote:  But the sad thing is if everyone with passes use them they will not make any money, and thus still get withdrawn being deemed unprofitable, the drivers wages still need paying out of any takings, £20 an hour for Stagecoach I believe and well over £30 for Arriva

Over a thousand night buses operate in London on a typical weekend and not a penny is paid in cash fares. When the various private operators - including Arriva and Stagecoach - bid for the routes in London they do it with the knowledge that they will have to run 24/7 and that payment will be made through an Oyster card. Arriva and Stagecoach have their own smart card payment systems and are happy to take customers' money - and make a profit - but not provide a service for six hours of any given day.

If I was to take your argument to its logical conclusion we should return to a situation that existed decades ago whereby every single journey would be a cash fare. Now that really would be a surefire way to lose business.

[mr t]

RE: Merseyside Night Buses

(24/08/2016 21:18)Barney Wrote:  Over a thousand night buses operate in London on a typical weekend and not a penny is paid in cash fares. When the various private operators - including Arriva and Stagecoach - bid for the routes in London they do it with the knowledge that they will have to run 24/7 and that payment will be made through an Oyster card. Arriva and Stagecoach have their own smart card payment systems and are happy to take customers' money - and make a profit - but not provide a service for six hours of any given day.

If I was to take your argument to its logical conclusion we should return to a situation that existed decades ago whereby every single journey would be a cash fare. Now that really would be a surefire way to lose business.

Sadly what the Arriva and Stagecoach business and finance people expect is a return for every journey or service - look at how many routes have been chopped especially by Arriva over the last couple of years, and high profile ones too that allegedly no longer pay, even though there is a fair % that use the day or weekly tickets and thus dont get recorded getting on or off buses, so therefore certain services look like they dont carry anyone when actually they could all be half full and the mangers dont see that, so its like a victim of their own success - if passengers simply scanned their tickets every time they boarded a bus the depots would then know exactly who and how many times that person uses the bus and what ones etc. We finally got the Merseytravel passes to scan, but still no operator ones do, so the service providers realistically has no idea how people use their own services at the moment, which is surely wrong in this digital and computer age - if we were all tracked then there might be patterns of people using certain routes or 2 routes to get to places and then they could respond to that by having a new services etc.
Sadly passsenger needs and providing a "full" service has disappeared in this age since deregulation. The only way things will change is if bus franchising is introduced where the timetables are stipulated or if Merseytravel has an increase in its bus fund to introduce more services that it used to support until the budgets keep getting cut over the last 5 years. Otherwise, its the shareholders that are the most important people in bus companies these days

[E400]

RE: Merseyside Night Buses

(24/08/2016 22:36)mr t Wrote:  Sadly what the Arriva and Stagecoach business and finance people expect is a return for every journey or service - look at how many routes have been chopped especially by Arriva over the last couple of years, and high profile ones too that allegedly no longer pay, even though there is a fair % that use the day or weekly tickets and thus dont get recorded getting on or off buses, so therefore certain services look like they dont carry anyone when actually they could all be half full and the mangers dont see that, so its like a victim of their own success - if passengers simply scanned their tickets every time they boarded a bus the depots would then know exactly who and how many times that person uses the bus and what ones etc. We finally got the Merseytravel passes to scan, but still no operator ones do, so the service providers realistically has no idea how people use their own services at the moment, which is surely wrong in this digital and computer age - if we were all tracked then there might be patterns of people using certain routes or 2 routes to get to places and then they could respond to that by having a new services etc.
Sadly passsenger needs and providing a "full" service has disappeared in this age since deregulation. The only way things will change is if bus franchising is introduced where the timetables are stipulated or if Merseytravel has an increase in its bus fund to introduce more services that it used to support until the budgets keep getting cut over the last 5 years. Otherwise, its the shareholders that are the most important people in bus companies these days

Stagecoach have their Smart card tickets, I would imagine Arriva isn't too far behind them. The Stagecoach passes also scan on Arriva ticket machines. As for the 86 - it will mainly be used by students, most of whom will have Arriva passes, which are not valid on Stagecoach. I can see the 86A having a very healthy service, especially at weekends, but Stagecoach may struggle unless they hit freshers with very hard with marketing.

Most freshers default to an Arriva pass because of the 699 - Stagecoach may only benefit from second and third years who realise they can save big time if they wait for the 86, and now that this is 24/7, Stagecoach have a massive opportunity to win a market share of students.

Let's face it - cash fares are not going to be around much longer. Pre-paid tickets is the way it is going. Arriva and Stagecoach must appreciate this and must therefore be expecting minimal cash fares. This also helps the security aspect (though I maintain that there is only a marginal increase in risk from normal evening services).

[Barney]

RE: Merseyside Night Buses

(25/08/2016 08:50)Enviro400 Wrote:  Stagecoach have their Smart card tickets, I would imagine Arriva isn't too far behind them. The Stagecoach passes also scan on Arriva ticket machines. As for the 86 - it will mainly be used by students, most of whom will have Arriva passes, which are not valid on Stagecoach. I can see the 86A having a very healthy service, especially at weekends, but Stagecoach may struggle unless they hit freshers with very hard with marketing.

Most freshers default to an Arriva pass because of the 699 - Stagecoach may only benefit from second and third years who realise they can save big time if they wait for the 86, and now that this is 24/7, Stagecoach have a massive opportunity to win a market share of students.

Let's face it - cash fares are not going to be around much longer. Pre-paid tickets is the way it is going. Arriva and Stagecoach must appreciate this and must therefore be expecting minimal cash fares. This also helps the security aspect (though I maintain that there is only a marginal increase in risk from normal evening services).

I think that we are all agreed that a conurbation as big as Merseyside with a high student influx needs some night bus service. The only question is how it is paid for. I agree that that cashless payment is the way forward whether it be through smart cards or debit cards. Since concessionary passes have become smart cards and the more recent introduction of Walrus cards, each operator now knows exactly who is using its services and when. As Mr T posted earlier, what appears to be a little used service (through cash receipts) is often very well used and Arriva and Stagecoach should, in this day and age, have precise information on who uses these new night services and when.

[E400]

RE: Merseyside Night Buses

(25/08/2016 10:00)Barney Wrote:  I think that we are all agreed that a conurbation as big as Merseyside with a high student influx needs some night bus service. The only question is how it is paid for. I agree that that cashless payment is the way forward whether it be through smart cards or debit cards. Since concessionary passes have become smart cards and the more recent introduction of Walrus cards, each operator now knows exactly who is using its services and when. As Mr T posted earlier, what appears to be a little used service (through cash receipts) is often very well used and Arriva and Stagecoach should, in this day and age, have precise information on who uses these new night services and when.

There will only be a couple of buses on each route, and I imagine they will keep the same drivers throughout the night - that is only 2 drivers per depot (Speke, Gilmoss and Rock Ferry) to verbally report rough loadings throughout the night to the duty manager. It will be very easy to track how these services do compared to normal daytime operation

[Raawwwrrr!]

RE: Merseyside Night Buses

(25/08/2016 08:50)Enviro400 Wrote:  Most freshers default to an Arriva pass because of the 699 - Stagecoach may only benefit from second and third years who realise they can save big time if they wait for the 86, and now that this is 24/7, Stagecoach have a massive opportunity to win a market share of students.
services).

Completely wrong. The only benefit of the 699 is to those who study at UoL. Students that live in the same area also study at LJMU or Hope. Stagecoach will get their fair share of students too.

[E400]

RE: Merseyside Night Buses

(25/08/2016 10:48)Raawwwrrr! Wrote:  Completely wrong. The only benefit of the 699 is to those who study at UoL. Students that live in the same area also study at LJMU or Hope. Stagecoach will get their fair share of students too.

I am afraid not.

Freshers are the students with the cash - they will buy bus passes because they don't know the city. Most of JMU's freshers are located in halls in the city or just off-campus (by Taskers, Lime Street, Tithebarn Street, Cheapside etc; while most of Hope's Freshers are located on Campus with free shuttle buses to the city centre campus - they will likely not bother with bus passes, and if they do, they do not account for a big enough market share, plus the night buses do not serve Hope - the fact that the 86C only runs during office hours suggests that Hope campus isn't worth longer operational hours.

By second year, most students live in the Smithdown Road area, regardless of the uni they attend - very few students will pay for a bus pass at this point, most opting to walk or cycle, and will only occasionally pay for a single or return bus fare when it is raining or they are in a rush.

Stagecoach and Arriva need to hit this new batch of freshers hard, and need to market the night buses as best as possible in order to keep them viable. If the students use the buses, they will be worth running, and if the students have a 24/7 service from campus to their home, then they are much more likely to see the benefits of investing in a long-term student bus pass in their 2nd and 3rd years.

[Raawwwrrr!]

RE: Merseyside Night Buses

(25/08/2016 11:22)Enviro400 Wrote:  I am afraid not.

Freshers are the students with the cash - they will buy bus passes because they don't know the city. Most of JMU's freshers are located in halls in the city or just off-campus (by Taskers, Lime Street, Tithebarn Street, Cheapside etc; while most of Hope's Freshers are located on Campus with free shuttle buses to the city centre campus - they will likely not bother with bus passes, and if they do, they do not account for a big enough market share, plus the night buses do not serve Hope - the fact that the 86C only runs during office hours suggests that Hope campus isn't worth longer operational hours.

By second year, most students live in the Smithdown Road area, regardless of the uni they attend - very few students will pay for a bus pass at this point, most opting to walk or cycle, and will only occasionally pay for a single or return bus fare when it is raining or they are in a rush. .

With many friends staying at either uni (Can't speak for Hope sadly), and myself currently undergoing he final year of a degree I completely disagree with you. It may be freshers who are new to the city, but most student halls are close to a campus, it's usually the second, third and finals that move out and into a house. I've done it and all my friends have done it.

Freshers may spend the cash, but by second year most will be commuting to/from uni and also a part time job (usually based within the City Centre, or if you're lucky slightly closer around Penny Lane or Lark Lane) Not only are you commuting to uni, you're then also commuting to work. If I was studying on LJMU's Brownlow Hill campus, I would not be walking or even cycling from my fictional student house near Smithdown Road, I can highly assure you that I would be getting buses. Particularly as well if my Campus was the science building just near the Mersey Tunnel and Library, I would honestly never walk, regardless of the weather from that side of the city.

The main user of the 699 is Uni Of Liverpool Students who stay at Carnation Halls, and LJMU students who study at nearby I.M Marsh Campus, these are the students that will have Arriva passes. However, the Stagecoach pass is cheaper, and if I lived on Smithdown Road or Wavertree, this is the pass I would go for based on price alone (Not to mention the buses are much nicer this year!).

Regardless, my point was about the viability of students using one night bus over another. It won't happen. If you take Manchester for example, regardless of what pass they have, many students will just get the first bus that comes as it's still cheaper than a taxi. It's also worth noticing that those with a Stagecoach pass (myself included) will often pay for a single fare on the other bus company out of convenience. If I've just missed the hourly nightbus, am I really going to wait another hour or am I going to pay £2ish to get the one due in half an hour? I'm going to pay the £x and go to bed as soon as drunkenly possible (either with or without a takeaway pizza).