Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

[Barney]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(25/07/2023 05:48)St Helens Rider Wrote:  Limited Stop/Express routes are what the region is desperately short of. I have recently travelled on routes which one would think would be fast but aren't (these being the X1 Liverpool - Chester, X2 Liverpool - Preston and 500 Liverpool - Airport) and none of these routes seem to be any quicker than other routes on their respective corridors.

Perhaps this topic should have its own thread but, nevertheless, I shall express my views here.

I agree that the journey times on many trunk routes are far too long and that there is a need for limited stop and express routes across the LCR but in the current set-up I cannot see this happening. Currently, profitability on each and every service is paramount and the wider cost-benefit analysis to society - and the environment - as a whole is of no concern to any bus operator.

In the the past, LCPT/MPTE operated several limited stop 5** services several of which several morphed into peak hour Rapidride 4** services whilst Crosville, Lancashire United and Ribble also ran their own genuine express/limited stop services in their respective operating areas.

From memory, all of the 4** and 5** services were withdrawn upon Deregulation and apart from one or two failed attempts have never been reinstated. Currently, the 500 is to all intents a stopping service.

It is by no means certain that franchising will be adopted by the LCR but if it is I would think that introducing specific limited stop/express services might be a way of showing that the model benefits passengers over profits.

[moreton407]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising
The likes of the X1 (Liverpool-Chester) and X2 (Liverpool-Preston) were limited stop services when introduced, now the X1 stops at all stops and the X2 only becomes limited stop after it leaves Merseyside. There is a need for limited stop services to places outside the Merseyside region, such as Chester, Preston, Warrington, Runcorn and towards Manchester.

I don't think that franchising will mean express services to anywhere, perhaps down the drain?

[iMarkeh]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(25/07/2023 05:48)St Helens Rider Wrote:  Limited Stop/Express routes are what the region is desperately short of. I have recently travelled on routes which one would think would be fast but aren't (these being the X1 Liverpool - Chester, X2 Liverpool - Preston and 500 Liverpool - Airport) and none of these routes seem to be any quicker than other routes on their respective corridors.

The X1 was fast until MCSL management decided that they wanted to kill off demand on the 1/X1 corridor.
The 500 is limited stop and is 10 minutes quicker from the Airport to Liverpool One. The issue is that it needs to serve more of the city to make it attractive to people but the down side of that is that the 500 takes 40 minutes to get back from L1 to LJLA but that makes the 500 and 82A take the same journey time.

West Wirral to Liverpool express routes have potential using the M53 and anything from Rock Ferry to Liverpool not serving Birkenhead would save a good amount of time.

Halton to Liverpool was doing alright on express routes but Arriva actively killed the X1 and put so many costs onto it needlessly (then wondered why it didn't make money despite bus and driver sitting around in Runcorn forever.

Other than these, what is the potential for an express bus? The roads which express buses would use (your Edge Lane, East Lancs etc) have so many traffic lights which massively delays buses and the traffic is so variable and with bus operators aiming for 100% reliability so padding up the timetables, any express bus would not really be any quicker than the main bus services.

[Barney]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(25/07/2023 12:00)iMarkeh Wrote:  The X1 was fast until MCSL management decided that they wanted to kill off demand on the 1/X1 corridor.
The 500 is limited stop and is 10 minutes quicker from the Airport to Liverpool One. The issue is that it needs to serve more of the city to make it attractive to people but the down side of that is that the 500 takes 40 minutes to get back from L1 to LJLA but that makes the 500 and 82A take the same journey time.

West Wirral to Liverpool express routes have potential using the M53 and anything from Rock Ferry to Liverpool not serving Birkenhead would save a good amount of time.

Halton to Liverpool was doing alright on express routes but Arriva actively killed the X1 and put so many costs onto it needlessly (then wondered why it didn't make money despite bus and driver sitting around in Runcorn forever.

Other than these, what is the potential for an express bus? The roads which express buses would use (your Edge Lane, East Lancs etc) have so many traffic lights which massively delays buses and the traffic is so variable and with bus operators aiming for 100% reliability so padding up the timetables, any express bus would not really be any quicker than the main bus services.

Strangely, I agree with most of of your post as the original Crosville 471/2 routes were peak hour express services and accept that traffic congestion on many roads is a huge problem.

However, I do still see an argument for limited stop services along major corridors calling at key stops which was what the 5** services did. I am sure that people living along Liverpool routes such as the 10, 14, 20, 79, 82, and 86 would value a reduced journey time into and out of the city centre but that can only come about if bus lanes and priority schemes were devised and previous LCC administrations have a very poor record in this regard.

[iMarkeh]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(25/07/2023 13:02)Barney Wrote:  However, I do still see an argument for limited stop services along major corridors calling at key stops which was what the 5** services did. I am sure that people living along Liverpool routes such as the 10, 14, 20, 79, 82, and 86 would value a reduced journey time into and out of the city centre but that can only come about if bus lanes and priority schemes were devised and previous LCC administrations have a very poor record in this regard.

With bus lanes and bus priority schemes as well, they would benefit the existing routes so how much time would actually end up being gained by not serving some stops? The main way to save time on the express routes is missing out a deviation to the straight route (such as the X1 not diverting off into Birkenhead). I can't think of any deviation that these routes make off the main road which an express route wouldn't also take (10 diverts into Prescot but an express bus would likely do that too. 86 diverting off up Catherine Street/Renshaw Street/Hanover Street but an express bus not diverting that way is likely to lose a lot of passengers as many people seem to board/alight in these areas).

For the specific routes that you mention, here are my thoughts.
10 yes, maybe but then which way do you send it as Edge Lane and Prescot Road are full of traffic lights and congestion.
20 basically follows the train line and if a certain hypocritical metro mayor would modernise the ticketing system to make it easier for people to get multi modal tickets, there would be hardly anyone on the 20 travelling the longer distances.
82 corridor has the 500 already which is limited stop along Aigburth Road. I always said though that the X1 should serve Speke Morrisons as I think that would have been a game changer.
86 corridor I am not sure how well an express bus would work as the speed of the buses fully depends on if both operators are running properly and with drivers who actually want to run on time and try to run a proper service or if someone is playing silly sods with drivers holding back to avoid picking up etc etc. If everyone ran properly, the 86 corridor wouldn't be half as bad as then buses would be stopping less. (disclaimer, I know that traffic affects punctuality too but it's well known on the 86 corridor that there are a good number of lazy drivers sit back and let everyone else pick up passengers)

[Valandil]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(26/07/2023 14:32)iMarkeh Wrote:  With bus lanes and bus priority schemes as well, they would benefit the existing routes so how much time would actually end up being gained by not serving some stops? The main way to save time on the express routes is missing out a deviation to the straight route (such as the X1 not diverting off into Birkenhead). I can't think of any deviation that these routes make off the main road which an express route wouldn't also take (10 diverts into Prescot but an express bus would likely do that too. 86 diverting off up Catherine Street/Renshaw Street/Hanover Street but an express bus not diverting that way is likely to lose a lot of passengers as many people seem to board/alight in these areas).

Yeah, if you imagine bus lanes and bus priority schemes working so that buses can run straight through traffic lights and only stop to pick up / set down, that would be great. Imagine sailing past all of the traffic jams on those key corridors.
That would make the bus more attractive.

To play devil's advocate though, schemes like bus lanes, bus priority and express buses do have the power to annoy people though, the people who they don't benefit.
If you're really in a hurry to get to your destination and an express bus sails past after 1 min, you're going to be annoyed that you have to wait longer *and* get on a slower vehicle.

So to my mind, express buses work best on sections of road where there are no bus stops.
Call at the bus stops you pass, as they are extra custom and usually don't add a considerable amount to the journey time.
So like the Runcorn X1 running on the A562 and could have an express bus running via M62 to St Helens (via St Helens Linkway), maybe another via M62 to Warrington.

[iMarkeh]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(26/07/2023 23:34)Valandil Wrote:  Yeah, if you imagine bus lanes and bus priority schemes working so that buses can run straight through traffic lights and only stop to pick up / set down, that would be great. Imagine sailing past all of the traffic jams on those key corridors.
That would make the bus more attractive.

To play devil's advocate though, schemes like bus lanes, bus priority and express buses do have the power to annoy people though, the people who they don't benefit.

It's not popular amongst the motoring lobby and sadly they scream louder than public transport users. It doesn't help of course though when you have corruption in councils and (allegedly) high up people in councils have shares in the private car parking companies. Combine that with a political agenda from a certain red party which says 'we will not make any improvements to public transport which could benefit private companies' and all political parties have policies which say 'we will only make changes where we will see the benefit or we can score political points'.

Throw all of that together, it doesn't matter how loud public transport users shout, they will always be on the back foot.

(26/07/2023 23:34)Valandil Wrote:  If you're really in a hurry to get to your destination and an express bus sails past after 1 min, you're going to be annoyed that you have to wait longer *and* get on a slower vehicle.

That is one of the main issues with express buses. By the time everyone has whinged that the bus doesn't serve their stop, it eventually becomes a normal bus and so the only way to make up time is using the roads without bus stops. Exactly the same as the X8. It was limited stop but the stops missed are the same ones which the 1 never used to stop at as usage of them stops is dismally low.

(26/07/2023 23:34)Valandil Wrote:  So like the Runcorn X1 running on the A562 and could have an express bus running via M62 to St Helens (via St Helens Linkway), maybe another via M62 to Warrington.

St Helens and Warrington would just be competing with the train though and what would slow them both down is the Edge Lane traffic which they will hit. The road to/from the motorway isn't the best.

Adding to that, one incident on the motorway and Warrington is a right mess so having the bus on the motorway and serving Warrington could be a bit of a recipe for disaster.


I think for a St Helens 'express route', you would be looking more at St Helens to Kirkby, Widnes, Speke or Ashton but that depends on what the demand would be for faster buses in these areas. Warrington could have ample express buses as their core network is so slow as it diverts down almost every other street as they don't want poor Dorris to whinge about walking the extra 100m from the main road.

[Raawwwrrr!]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(27/07/2023 12:36)iMarkeh Wrote:  St Helens and Warrington would just be competing with the train though and what would slow them both down is the Edge Lane traffic which they will hit. The road to/from the motorway isn't the best.

St Helens to Liverpool doesn’t follow the train line from Prescot, and would probably be the most feasible route. Something like all stops to Alder Hey then non-stop to the City would be well received, even if just a peak-time service

(27/07/2023 12:36)iMarkeh Wrote:  I think for a St Helens 'express route', you would be looking more at St Helens to Kirkby, Widnes, Speke or Ashton but that depends on what the demand would be for faster buses in these areas.

There’s no demand for destinations like the above.

St Helens to Kirkby can barely sustain a two hourly 9-5 service currently
Ashton in Makerfield is already well served by frequent services that take less than 30 minutes, in my books that’s not completely unreasonable.
Widnes would be better served simply by splitting off serving both the estates of Sutton Manor and Sutton Leach to other local services to reduce journey times to around 30 minutes again.
Also, very few passengers take the full 89 route to Speke, its large passenger flows travelling to/from all points on the route that make the 89 a success.

[Barney]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(26/07/2023 14:32)iMarkeh Wrote:  With bus lanes and bus priority schemes as well, they would benefit the existing routes so how much time would actually end up being gained by not serving some stops? The main way to save time on the express routes is missing out a deviation to the straight route (such as the X1 not diverting off into Birkenhead). I can't think of any deviation that these routes make off the main road which an express route wouldn't also take (10 diverts into Prescot but an express bus would likely do that too. 86 diverting off up Catherine Street/Renshaw Street/Hanover Street but an express bus not diverting that way is likely to lose a lot of passengers as many people seem to board/alight in these areas).

For the specific routes that you mention, here are my thoughts.
10 yes, maybe but then which way do you send it as Edge Lane and Prescot Road are full of traffic lights and congestion.
20 basically follows the train line and if a certain hypocritical metro mayor would modernise the ticketing system to make it easier for people to get multi modal tickets, there would be hardly anyone on the 20 travelling the longer distances.
82 corridor has the 500 already which is limited stop along Aigburth Road. I always said though that the X1 should serve Speke Morrisons as I think that would have been a game changer.
86 corridor I am not sure how well an express bus would work as the speed of the buses fully depends on if both operators are running properly and with drivers who actually want to run on time and try to run a proper service or if someone is playing silly sods with drivers holding back to avoid picking up etc etc. If everyone ran properly, the 86 corridor wouldn't be half as bad as then buses would be stopping less. (disclaimer, I know that traffic affects punctuality too but it's well known on the 86 corridor that there are a good number of lazy drivers sit back and let everyone else pick up passengers)

Again, we really are going off topic - the possibility of bus franchising - but my suggestions regarding limited stop services in the Liverpool area is based on my memories of limited stop services in the 1970s. In that period, I regularly travelled on the 500 from Aigburth Vale to Walton Vale in 35 minutes. Even though the Merseyrail system has been extensively enhanced to Hunts Cross and Kirkby since then, it is no longer possible to do that same journey in anything less than an hour.

[Valandil]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising
Bus lanes coming back to Liverpool:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-66863323

Not directly connected with this, but affects multiple operators in the run up to possible franchasing, so reporting here rather than on operator-specific threads.