Lothian Buses & First Scotland East

[CX06 EBK (Administrator)]

RE: Lothian Buses & First Scotland East
The former Lothian deckers did not come directly from them.

[Winston]

RE: Lothian Buses & First Scotland East

(29/05/2019 23:16)gilesbus1 Wrote:  Thanks for that list its odd that 32726-32729 are coming from Lothian, so I assume by that Lothian aren't at all worried or they could have blocked the sale to them, unless of course they are being sold through dealers, such as Ensign etc as intermediaries.

Seems odd that First would pick to compete on the tour, as every other operator on it as ended up either closing or passing to Lothian in anycase. Plus not sure they will be in a good condition in a morning having been driven from Livingston in Rain/Snow/Wind etc, down the M8, Also would say from the age of all but the Enviro400, that they don't thing they will be there long term as every other one has an old series registration and are all round about 19/20 years old. Guess after one season they will be in PVS's yard awaiting crushing and Livingston depot will be closed and Lothian will operate all the services there. Lets not forget they are already at a disadvantage with the amount of dead mileage they will have to do to get there. Anyway interesting times.

The former Lothian open top Tridents have come from West Coast Motors.

I think the idea is that the Edinburgh Tours is lucrative for Lothian & it is a fairly low cost competitive strike back at Lothian for setting up in West Lothian with Lothian Country Buses. They're undercutting Lothian by £6, with First charging £10 whilst Lothian currently charge £16. Where it will go after that is anyone's guess. But two operators in Livingston isn't sustainable.

[EDB325]

RE: Lothian Buses & First Scotland East
I would expect First to find a yard in Edinburgh, and only send the vehicles to Livingston for maintenance. I'll be in Edinburgh for a couple of days two weeks from now, so will have a closer look at what's going on.

[gilesbus1]

RE: Lothian Buses & First Scotland East

(31/05/2019 08:26)EDB325 Wrote:  I would expect First to find a yard in Edinburgh, and only send the vehicles to Livingston for maintenance. I'll be in Edinburgh for a couple of days two weeks from now, so will have a closer look at what's going on.

A yard with open tops ain't the best of idea's as heavy rain would leave them sodden. I also believe there two previous depots in Edinburgh have been demolished. The only other option would be to share space with a coach operator, but then that is cutting in to their margins. If they go on a longer assault in Edinburgh then that is another issue, suppose what happens to FirstGroup its self might have some baring on it, because there is also the possibility Lothian might offer to buy the Livingston operations if First Bus gets sold off piecemeal rather than as a whole. Lets not forget First did likewise with its Musselburgh depot and I think Lothian looks to want to make itself the only internal large operator within the Lothian area, plus the fact Livingston depot has been said to make losses for years. I suspect the assault by Lothian on that area, is to try to force FirstGroup to give up and sell out there to Lothian, of course Lothian, as with East Coast Buses would then try to further grow the operations in places such as Linlithgow.

[Southernsofty]

RE: Lothian Buses & First Scotland East

(03/06/2019 20:46)gilesbus1 Wrote:  A yard with open tops ain't the best of idea's as heavy rain would leave them sodden. I also believe there two previous depots in Edinburgh have been demolished. The only other option would be to share space with a coach operator, but then that is cutting in to their margins. If they go on a longer assault in Edinburgh then that is another issue, suppose what happens to FirstGroup its self might have some baring on it, because there is also the possibility Lothian might offer to buy the Livingston operations if First Bus gets sold off piecemeal rather than as a whole. Lets not forget First did likewise with its Musselburgh depot and I think Lothian looks to want to make itself the only internal large operator within the Lothian area, plus the fact Livingston depot has been said to make losses for years. I suspect the assault by Lothian on that area, is to try to force FirstGroup to give up and sell out there to Lothian, of course Lothian, as with East Coast Buses would then try to further grow the operations in places such as Linlithgow.

I was under the Impression that Livingstone was profitable for First, unlike most of FSE.
The CMA would take a dim view of Lothian taking over Livingstone, unless of course First decided to pull out, but then Lothian are setting up a depot in Livingstone anyway.

[gilesbus1]

RE: Lothian Buses & First Scotland East

(05/06/2019 08:57)Southernsofty Wrote:  I was under the Impression that Livingstone was profitable for First, unlike most of FSE.
The CMA would take a dim view of Lothian taking over Livingstone, unless of course First decided to pull out, but then Lothian are setting up a depot in Livingstone anyway.

First Scotland East is a big loss leader and isn't in profit, an article in Buses on Queens Road stated that it was running at a loss and from what I understand from elsewhere has been doing so for several years hence the depot sales and closures of the past, Livingston depot is remote from the other depots so it would make sense to off load it, I am sure what Lothian is using now is a converted unit not designed for bus operation, so if the opportunity came up I am sure they would be happy to have it in order to grow the operation further, lets not forget Lothian likes high frequency routes running regularly an no doubt they would implement that here based on what they already have plus expansion, as currently all routes run into Edinburgh and First will have several routes that don't so they would need to take on those as well which may mean other opportunities, perhaps another opportunity might be to take over E & M Horsburgh which would give other vehicles and several contracts but thats not really Lothian's standard so they probably wouldn't bother with it.

[Southernsofty]

RE: Lothian Buses & First Scotland East

(05/06/2019 15:06)gilesbus1 Wrote:  First Scotland East is a big loss leader and isn't in profit, an article in Buses on Queens Road stated that it was running at a loss and from what I understand from elsewhere has been doing so for several years hence the depot sales and closures of the past, Livingston depot is remote from the other depots so it would make sense to off load it, I am sure what Lothian is using now is a converted unit not designed for bus operation, so if the opportunity came up I am sure they would be happy to have it in order to grow the operation further, lets not forget Lothian likes high frequency routes running regularly an no doubt they would implement that here based on what they already have plus expansion, as currently all routes run into Edinburgh and First will have several routes that don't so they would need to take on those as well which may mean other opportunities, perhaps another opportunity might be to take over E & M Horsburgh which would give other vehicles and several contracts but thats not really Lothian's standard so they probably wouldn't bother with it.

just checked my notes and for year ending April 2018 (latest available figures, just over a year old)
First Scotland East (Livingston)made an operating profit of £639,000 on a turnover of £8.8M, thats @ 7%.
Midland Bluebird, which consists of Larbert & Bannockburn, made an operating loss of £1.1M on a turnover of £22.7M.
Livingston would appear to be the only profitable part of FSE/Midland Bluebird, it seems to be the Depot that has had the most investment vehicle wise, of the course the promised Edinburgh LEZ has probably had a bearing.

[gilesbus1]

RE: Lothian Buses & First Scotland East

(05/06/2019 17:01)Southernsofty Wrote:  just checked my notes and for year ending April 2018 (latest available figures, just over a year old)
First Scotland East (Livingston)made an operating profit of £639,000 on a turnover of £8.8M, thats @ 7%.
Midland Bluebird, which consists of Larbert & Bannockburn, made an operating loss of £1.1M on a turnover of £22.7M.
Livingston would appear to be the only profitable part of FSE/Midland Bluebird, it seems to be the Depot that has had the most investment vehicle wise, of the course the promised Edinburgh LEZ has probably had a bearing.

I'm guessing then the competition will not be helping that £639,000 and next year it will be a loss meaning the whole fleet is at a loss, Lothian would be in best position to succeed there, and maybe the other three depots and Bannockburn, Larbert and Balfron could then be placed under First Glasgow control meaning an operating division would vanish and an MD's wages and other Head Office staff wages could be saved at Larbert, maybe bringing it back into profitability. (Just a thought).

[Metroline1511]

RE: Lothian Buses & First Scotland East

(29/05/2019 22:42)Winston Wrote:  First have acquired an elderly fleet of open toppers for the new sightseeing tours, they're not converting them:

Dennis Trident / Plaxton President (Ex-Lothian)
32726 / V526 ESC
32727 / V527 ESC
32728 / V528 ESC
32729 / V529 ESC

Dennis Trident / ALX400 (Ex-Stagecoach)
32789 / T679 KPU
32790 / V473KJN
32792 / X274 NNO
32793 / X377 NNO
32794 / X276 NNO

ADL Enviro 400 (Ex-Metroline)
33500 / LK55 KKT

DAF DB250 / Plaxton President (Ex-RATP)
35010 / T210 XBV
35011 / T211 XBV
35012 / T212 XBV
35013 / T213 XBV

It is ironic also that First are buying an ex-Metroline bus. When First pulled out of London in 2013 they sold a chunk of their west London operation to Metroline. So they could instead have bought back a vehicle they sold to Metroline!

[Southernsofty]

RE: Lothian Buses & First Scotland East

(09/06/2019 05:52)Metroline1511 Wrote:  It is ironic also that First are buying an ex-Metroline bus. When First pulled out of London in 2013 they sold a chunk of their west London operation to Metroline. So they could instead have bought back a vehicle they sold to Metroline!

The secondhand Opentoppers will do nicely as and when the LEZ in Edinburgh starts!
Obviously a short term plan.