First Manchester

[Barney]

RE: First Manchester

(25/02/2019 08:47)Brickmill Wrote:  Personally, I totally disagree with "forced" integration. Even bus to bus integration isn't ideal unless between frequent services.

It seems to work in most European countries where different modes of public transport complement each other unlike in the UK (except London of course) where they compete with each other. A ticketing system like the Oyster card would help to promote integration.

[Bevan Price]

RE: First Manchester
May not be relevant to First Bus changes, but the Rotala group website includes this statement:-


"The Group performed well in 2018 and, with a strong management team and a comprehensive network of operating facilities, is well placed to take advantage of these continuing developments in the bus industry. Such uncertainty brings opportunity to groups like Rotala and the Group is well placed to take advantage of any acquisition opportunities that may arise."


http://otp.investis.com/clients/uk/rotal...id=1228135

[Brickmill]

RE: First Manchester

(25/02/2019 17:15)WhiteVanMan Wrote:  This is whats happens in London, with buses serving both overground and underground rail stations.

I'm no London expert but from my very limited experience of mainly the Piccadilly Line, suburban LUL stations are much closer to each other than Metrolink stop s, they. run something like every 5 minutes and have proper seats.

[Mrboo]

RE: First Manchester
Oldham needs a totally new network of services you have places like Fitton hill with no Buses to Manchester. and the 425 is really 2 services as there a long wait at Oldham. I would change the 425 to Run Fitton Hill then by park road to Alt then Oldham then back to Fitton hill along Ashton road with say 426 going other way round. You can`t fight the tram but you can get smart with your routes. Like run a Ashton to Hollins road then Limeside then along Oldham road and run a new service along 83 to Hollingwood then turn into hollingwood av then down Broadway then back onto 83 or doing that with 180 as this would give a bus to Morrisons and would take a bit longer then 83 but not much longer. and then there Manchester/Oldham to Halifax and even a Fast M60 link from Oldham to Hollingwood then call at tram stop then fast to Stockport and airport. even if just every hour it a new link and with the train line from Greenfelid and Mossey losing there services for over 18 months soon they a market there also to tap into. the 81 going to be going into a battle zone with stagecaoch and go ahead so I would cut

[gilesbus1]

RE: First Manchester
I think in terms of integration we are looking at two different things here, there are two types of Metrolink Services those that serve old railway lines that tend to be quick, but tend not to be close to main roads, and those which tend to be slow and run along main roads and are restricted by strict speed limits put in place.

Buses and trams could more closely work together, lets not forget when the trams ended buses took over they didn't compete with one another over direct routes.

Of course anything is open to debate and planning. Some bus services are needed because they reach places un-accessible to trams and also can operate more flexibly that said though were riders are diminishing something needs to be done either to get riders riding again or to cut out waste, that doesn't necessarily mean the bus service is withdrawn equally the tram service could be cut back so you have a situation were buses and trams work alternate journeys with integrated ticketing which might be to more people's benefit, or alternatively at the end of networks buses go onward's to estates offering alternative travel options, and also serve at the same time as a town service, or bus services change to serve other areas currently poorly or un-served. Busways might make another solution in that they cost a fraction of the cost of a new tram line yet can come off their tracks and run along the road so there is no need to change vehicles in anyway.

I think its all an open question.

[gilesbus1]

RE: First Manchester

(25/02/2019 19:26)Bevan Price Wrote:  May not be relevant to First Bus changes, but the Rotala group website includes this statement:-


"The Group performed well in 2018 and, with a strong management team and a comprehensive network of operating facilities, is well placed to take advantage of these continuing developments in the bus industry. Such uncertainty brings opportunity to groups like Rotala and the Group is well placed to take advantage of any acquisition opportunities that may arise."


http://otp.investis.com/clients/uk/rotal...id=1228135

I think with much lower finances they are looking at much smaller purchases, with say around no more than 80 buses at a time. Bolton maybe to big for them to acquire as its not just the purchase cost its also the cost of renewing the fleet, the purchasing system current operated as a few new batches every now and again all on lease and the odd recent secondhand purchase wouldn't be sufficient to renew the fleet at Bolton, lets not forget they are current withdrawing 20 year old Dennis Tridents at Preston. I just don't see them as a serious runner, the more likely purchase for these is the Arriva depots at Bolton and Wythenshawe and maybe an independent like Jim Stones or Vision Bus.

[Brickmill]

RE: First Manchester

(26/02/2019 10:48)gilesbus1 Wrote:  I think in terms of integration we are looking at two different things here, there are two types of Metrolink Services those that serve old railway lines that tend to be quick, but tend not to be close to main roads, and those which tend to be slow and run along main roads and are restricted by strict speed limits put in place.

Buses and trams could more closely work together, lets not forget when the trams ended buses took over they didn't compete with one another over direct routes.

Of course anything is open to debate and planning. Some bus services are needed because they reach places un-accessible to trams and also can operate more flexibly that said though were riders are diminishing something needs to be done either to get riders riding again or to cut out waste, that doesn't necessarily mean the bus service is withdrawn equally the tram service could be cut back so you have a situation were buses and trams work alternate journeys with integrated ticketing which might be to more people's benefit, or alternatively at the end of networks buses go onward's to estates offering alternative travel options, and also serve at the same time as a town service, or bus services change to serve other areas currently poorly or un-served. Busways might make another solution in that they cost a fraction of the cost of a new tram line yet can come off their tracks and run along the road so there is no need to change vehicles in anyway.

I think its all an open question.

I don't know if anyone can confirm but didn't "proper" suburban trams have stops much closer together than LRT? Also, the massive capital cost of Rail means there is no way any cuts in service levels will be tolerated. You are right to differentiate between the original Phase 1 Metrolink replacing existing Rail through relatively high car ownership areas, and Phase 3+

[gilesbus1]

RE: First Manchester

(26/02/2019 15:49)Brickmill Wrote:  I don't know if anyone can confirm but didn't "proper" suburban trams have stops much closer together than LRT? Also, the massive capital cost of Rail means there is no way any cuts in service levels will be tolerated. You are right to differentiate between the original Phase 1 Metrolink replacing existing Rail through relatively high car ownership areas, and Phase 3+

Yep your right stops would have been like bus stops on original tram networks, and yes Metrolink is based on the rail network in about 70% services, although unsure if they are all on high car ownership area. The Altrincham Line, The Didsbury line places would be, and parts of the Eccles line in Salford Quays. Thought wouldn't think that the Oldham/Rochdale, Bury and Ashton lines would be high car ownership.

Was always sceptical as to why more trams and buses weren't put onto some of these routes with low car ownership.

[Winston]

RE: First Manchester

(26/02/2019 10:54)gilesbus1 Wrote:  I think with much lower finances they are looking at much smaller purchases, with say around no more than 80 buses at a time. Bolton maybe to big for them to acquire as its not just the purchase cost its also the cost of renewing the fleet, the purchasing system current operated as a few new batches every now and again all on lease and the odd recent secondhand purchase wouldn't be sufficient to renew the fleet at Bolton, lets not forget they are current withdrawing 20 year old Dennis Tridents at Preston. I just don't see them as a serious runner, the more likely purchase for these is the Arriva depots at Bolton and Wythenshawe and maybe an independent like Jim Stones or Vision Bus.

The above statements aren't correct, I think you need to familiarise yourself with the Route One interview from Oct last year:

'Rotala now has access to £50 Million war chest, through its banking partner HSBC.....'
http://www.route-one.net/magazines/emag/...ge_32.html

[Brickmill]

RE: First Manchester

(26/02/2019 15:57)gilesbus1 Wrote:  Yep your right stops would have been like bus stops on original tram networks, and yes Metrolink is based on the rail network in about 70% services, although unsure if they are all on high car ownership area. The Altrincham Line, The Didsbury line places would be, and parts of the Eccles line in Salford Quays. Thought wouldn't think that the Oldham/Rochdale, Bury and Ashton lines would be high car ownership.

Was always sceptical as to why more trams and buses weren't put onto some of these routes with low car ownership.

Sorry, got cut off! Meant to say that Phase 3 is completely different in that it does serve many low car ownership areas.