[Archive] Northern (Arriva Rail North)

[SK15 GZG (Moderator)]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)

(08/02/2017 20:55)Dentonian Wrote:  Just going back to this. I must admit I don't know which are which in terms of where units have come from. Tonight's train was a Pacer with 3x2 seating, so does that make it an exMerseytravel one? I *think* the number was 142 012, but can't be sure. There were about 60-70 standees leaving Piccadilly. Would this be classed as overcrowded?

The ex Merseytravel units are 142041-49/051-058

[knutstransport]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)

(08/02/2017 20:55)Dentonian Wrote:  Just going back to this. I must admit I don't know which are which in terms of where units have come from. Tonight's train was a Pacer with 3x2 seating, so does that make it an exMerseytravel one? I *think* the number was 142 012, but can't be sure. There were about 60-70 standees leaving Piccadilly. Would this be classed as overcrowded?

The ex-Merseyrail ones have all the seats in the carriage facing the same direction and have individual seats in a 3+2 formation. On the ex-FNW ones the direction the seats face changes in the middle of the carriage and they have a large bench for seating 3 people on one side and a smaller bench for seating 2 people on the other side.

Yes it would be classed as overcrowded but the time of the service and how long people had to stand for would determine how overcrowded it is. Standing for up to 20 minutes is seen as acceptable at peak times but not at off-peak times.

Also it would only be seen as an issue if that is a typical loading and the service is booked to be operated by a single 142.

[knutstransport]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)
Arriva have a franchise agreement requiring them to provide DCO services whereby there's two members of franchise staff on board but the driver is responsible for the doors. They assured the RMT there would be two members of staff on all services but now Mick Cash has accused them of going back on their word because he asked for a guarantee the guard would close the doors and dispatch the service which Arriva obviously can't give. Consequently the RMT has balloted members on industrial action.

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-declares-...iva-north/

[knutstransport]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)

(09/02/2017 21:36)Dentonian Wrote:  20 minutes standing: I don't know for sure as this would take the train three stops further down the line. I would suspect there are still standees, but not many.

Difficult to tell if its a typical number, I suspect again the average is a bit less (maybe 40-50), but the journey is usually operated by a 150, which is off course a more claustrophobic type with restricted views beyond the door area, and similarly restricted movement options.

If passengers choose to remaining standing rather than sit in a middle seat when the train has 3+2 seating then they wouldn't be counted. Obviously on a 150 it's impossible to see if the other carriage has emptied out faster than the one you are in without actually going through in to the next carriage. Once on a 185 I was sat in the standard class bit in coach C, where there were a few unoccupied seats and went through to coach B to use the toilet and noticed around 20 people were standing in that carriage.

Northern don't diagram 150/1s and 150/2s differently so I think TfGM use a fixed figure of 137 seats when deciding if a service is overcrowded or short formed (if they pay for it to be strengthened.) Then if you get an ex-FNW 150/1 you get 13 seats less than that or if you get an ex-LM 150/2 you get 12 seats more than that.

Quote:The service IS the only evening peak journey booked to be operated by a single unit (irrelevant of Class), and this is the real issue as it is (just) the busiest.

What other services are part of the same diagram and whether services get busier later on also have to considered. I don't know a lot about loadings on lines going east from Manchester, but on the ones which go South towards Stockport and don't call at Levenhulme and Heaton Chapel, they generally leave Stockport with a higher loading than Piccadilly. The ones going towards Chester can be busier leaving Altrincham than Piccadilly.

[knutstransport]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)
185s are the diesel Desiros but the electric ones are 350s and operate most of the Scottish TPE services.

Seat reservations are offered with flexible tickets like Anytime Single/Returns and Off-Peak Single/Returns so if you miss the train with your reserved seat then your ticket isn't invalid.

On occasions I've had Advance tickets covering multiple services and the first train has been delayed meaning I've missed the connection but in that case you are allowed to travel on the next service despite the ticket saying it's only valid on the booked train. However, the seat reservation remains on the train you missed.

[Sprinterdriver]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)
I wouldn't say that's bad design, it always means first is towards the middle, so people know where to look.

Why not just stand towards the middle of where the train stops and walk through when you get on it?

SD.

[Metroline1511]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)
Last week I started a new job, and have a seat where I can see a platform of Ardwick station and can see loads of trains go by. Without counting exact quantities, the approximate ratio of 319s to 323s suggests that Manchester Airport shuttles are mainly 319s rather than 323s nowadays. I thought they were just occasional workings.

[knutstransport]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)

(11/02/2017 19:00)Metroline1511 Wrote:  Last week I started a new job, and have a seat where I can see a platform of Ardwick station and can see loads of trains go by. Without counting exact quantities, the approximate ratio of 319s to 323s suggests that Manchester Airport shuttles are mainly 319s rather than 323s nowadays. I thought they were just occasional workings.

The Airport to Piccadilly shuttle is one diagram which is now a 319. The 323 that was previously used is now used on a peak time extra from Macclesfield in the morning and a peak time extra to Hazel Grove in the evening so the DMUs stretch further following the TPE 170s going to Chiltern. The Crewe via Airport services are still 323s.

[knutstransport]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)

(11/02/2017 20:45)Dentonian Wrote:  But walk through in which direction. First Class passengers (if there are any) tend to give the hoi polloi funny looks at the best of times. If you walk through to one end, find you've guessed wrong, and walk back past the same people, they are going to turn their nose up twice. i would have thought they's prefer the "old" system as on 185s, where First Class is just at the two extremes, with frosted glass doors normally closed.

The 350 system is actually the 'old system' designed for the London commuter routes where trains frequently run in double or triple formations. The 350/1s were originally going to be more 450s but the order was modified so they had a pantograph and 2+2 seating instead of 3+2 seating. The 185 came a couple of years later.

[Sprinterdriver]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)

(11/02/2017 20:45)Dentonian Wrote:  But walk through in which direction. First Class passengers (if there are any) tend to give the hoi polloi funny looks at the best of times. If you walk through to one end, find you've guessed wrong, and walk back past the same people, they are going to turn their nose up twice. i would have thought they's prefer the "old" system as on 185s, where First Class is just at the two extremes, with frosted glass doors normally closed.

In whichever direction seats are available, so what if people turn their noses up at you!

The problem with the 185 is that the main toilet is at the end of the unit (first class is only at one end of a 185) so anyone needing the loo will have to walk through, so they will be used to it!

SD.