Talks of Liverpools bus network being "council" run

[Metroline1511]

RE: Talks of Liverpools bus network being "council" run

(29/10/2014 21:50)kuyoyo Wrote:  Exactly. As mentioned, Nexus here in the North East are presently on course to rip the profits presently used to generate the new stock the companies buy to pay off their large debts unless they are stopped (the operators are ready to take them to court, but are waiting until after the Traffic Commissioner and a panel of industry experts have reviewed it). The ITA (made up of Durham, Northumberland and the Tyne and Wear Councils - called North East Combined Authority when it doesn't included the whole of the North East).

Basically, what the councils and PTEs need to do is look at their colleagues in South Yorkshire and the award-winning Sheffield Partnership scheme. Operations take most of the cost for operating services (still a small number of contracted services but these are mainly operated by either TM Travel or Sheffield Community Transport) while the PTE do the timetables and spend money on infrastructure work. All changes are consulted on in a fair and equal way. This is the way places should be going - and indeed here in the southern part of the North East, we are on the way to that.

Sheffield works better than before the bus prtnership. There are more even frequencies on routes run jointly by First and Stagecoach, and a broader range of tickets including a Sheffield Citywide ticket, also valid on other operators most notably TM Travel.

A flaw in the Nexus proposals compared to London, highlighted in Buses magazine about 18 months ago, is that there will be 3 or 4 area franchises rather than London-style route tenders. So this pre-supposed for example that Go-Ahead or Stagecoach could absorb the other's network in the area, or an outside operator (even if Arriva) absorbs both current operations.

(30/10/2014 19:26)wirralbus Wrote:  Would Stagecoach do what they threatened to do on Tyneside and pull the plug on there Merseyside operations if these proposals came in .

Would we get to the situation like in London though where there would be a continuous merry go round of routes passing between operators , another thing also would this mean the end of a multitude of bus colours and one standard livery being adopted for operations.

It would be interesting to see routes operated by the likes of Arriva, Stagecoach, MTL Buses, Peoplesbus, Halton Transport etc, and sometimes switching operator.

(31/10/2014 20:40)wirralbus Wrote:  Notice how Arriva have kept very quiet in this debate about reregulation of the buses.

Arriva if they wanted to could put a massive spanner in the works here on Merseyside , there just letting Stagecoach give the operators opinion as they to all intents any purposes are the smaller of the major operators here .

I do wonder what First Bus opinion is on reregulation as Manchester could be a minefield if Greater Manchester went down that line .

As Arriva parent company Deutsche Bahn operate many franchises in Europe, and Arriva has been in London since the early days of route tendering, I think they will be pragmatic and accept route tendering in Merseyside. They may prefer to lose a few routes than fall out with Merseytravel.

As First specifically pulled out of London last year, in part through having had to make 45% of their national investment into just the 14% of their national operation in London, I doubt they will welcome re-regulation in Manchester or any of their urban areas.

[motormayhem1]

RE: Talks of Liverpools bus network being "council" run
It works in london because its the capital city and the population is very high there and a lot of people use the buses down there due to restricted parking laws and the places you can park as an high parking charge where as other uk cities there is parking facilities etc all over the cities and no red routes or congestion charge so its still viable for people to use there car in other cities across the uk and i know someone is going to state bus fares are high which is the the reason for less bus useage but fact is outside london it will never work .

[rod_259]

RE: Talks of Liverpools bus network being "council" run
London is unique and thereare three factors which dont affect Merseyside, Manchester or other connurbations in the same way:
1. It is one of the major world tourist destinations and tourists use public transport.
2. The vast majority of commuters use public transport
3. The congestion charge.
Also as stated in an earlier post concerning First the companies have to invest more heavily than elsewhere and they need to make a decent profit also. Overall the present set up works quite well why try and change it so drastically?

[St Helens Rider]

RE: Talks of Liverpools bus network being "council" run

(02/11/2014 10:40)Dentonian Wrote:  Trouble is, its something of a generalisation to say the present set up works quite well. Compared to pre-1986, it may work "quite well" for south Manchester, but few in Tameside or Bolton - two of the most profitable depots in GMT/GMB days - are happy. I suspect something similar is the case in Merseyside, with many Liverpool routes having better servics than pre-1986, whilst the suburbs, especially the erstwhile low car ownership ones, have suffered.

Spot on Dentonian, St Helens has lost quite few links (mostly cross town) and there are quite a few areas which are either poorly or not served at all these days.

[wirralbus]

RE: Talks of Liverpools bus network being "council" run
But would those links come back if the service was reregulated , I highly doubt it , Merseytravel , TfGM will just use the basis of the present route network as the baseline .

[Mayneway]

RE: Talks of Liverpools bus network being "council" run

(02/11/2014 10:40)Dentonian Wrote:  Trouble is, its something of a generalisation to say the present set up works quite well. Compared to pre-1986, it may work "quite well" for south Manchester, but few in Tameside or Bolton - two of the most profitable depots in GMT/GMB days - are happy. I suspect something similar is the case in Merseyside, with many Liverpool routes having better servics than pre-1986, whilst the suburbs, especially the erstwhile low car ownership ones, have suffered.

Because the network outside of side of peak is so pour. I personally travel to and from work by bus and its a bus to the bus station then a bus to work, but in the evening it's a bus to the bus station then a 25 minute walk home. I live on a busy enough road that's served by three very busy commercial services but at 7pm when everything seems to become subsidised services are sketchy and non existant. It's abit like the postcode lottery. If your lucky enough to live on a large council estate get served by a hourly service up till midnight yet other areas get nothing, and the crazy thing is them subsidised services that do run in the evening tend to carry fresh air after 9pm.

As one fellow Tameside shift worker pointed out to me a couple of weeks ago, Stagecoach still insist on frequent early morning and late eveving 216's despite the Metrolink running in direct compititon yet other areas of Tameside that Stagecoach serves commercially are left high and dry.

[wirralbus]

RE: Talks of Liverpools bus network being "council" run
The thing is it is akin to political suicide in some councils to even consider withdrawing some of those fresh air contracted services.

It should be a case of use them or lose them , so the councils can use that money where there is a need to be had.

[Barney]

RE: Talks of Liverpools bus network being "council" run

(02/11/2014 13:13)wirralbus Wrote:  But would those links come back if the service was reregulated , I highly doubt it , Merseytravel , TfGM will just use the basis of the present route network as the baseline .

At the moment - and for a good while to come, I suspect - all of this is total speculation. Having said that, IF re-regulation does happen one aspect of bus operation that I would like see is that all services run 18/7. Under the current legislation, bus operators can opt to run services at the times that they choose so that they can maximise profit and leave it to the ITA, in this case Merseytravel, to 'fill the gaps' at evenings and weekends.

I can only comment on services operated by Arriva out of Bootle depot but this is a case in point. At the present time the 54 and 62 operate daily but only until early evening whilst the 56 and 58 only operate M-Sat until early evening. At other times a patchwork of tendered services operated by a number of smaller operators run which invariably confuses all but the most knowledgeable of bus user. My understanding of this proposal is that a successful franchisee would have sole rights and obligations to run specific services at specific times as is the case in London. Surely, this can only be a good thing.

[Mayneway]

RE: Talks of Liverpools bus network being "council" run

(02/11/2014 13:56)wirralbus Wrote:  The thing is it is akin to political suicide in some councils to even consider withdrawing some of those fresh air contracted services.

It should be a case of use them or lose them , so the councils can use that money where there is a need to be had.

I think it's more a case of not wanting to upset the big ops that run them. Incidentally I'm not having a swipe at Stagecoach, as most of the eveving council runs in Ashton are run by First.

It's great for people on the A6 that are served by the 192 with fancy new buses and free wifi but in the suberbs as Dentonian has rightly said people are disalusioned by bus services and the people running them. Letting politians get involved would be even worse.

[wirralbus]

RE: Talks of Liverpools bus network being "council" run

(02/11/2014 14:06)Barney Wrote:  At the moment - and for a good while to come, I suspect - all of this is total speculation. Having said that, IF re-regulation does happen one aspect of bus operation that I would like see is that all services run 18/7. Under the current legislation, bus operators can opt to run services at the times that they choose so that they can maximise profit and leave it to the ITA, in this case Merseytravel, to 'fill the gaps' at evenings and weekends.

I can only comment on services operated by Arriva out of Bootle depot but this is a case in point. At the present time the 54 and 62 operate daily but only until early evening whilst the 56 and 58 only operate M-Sat until early evening. At other times a patchwork of tendered services operated by a number of smaller operators run which invariably confuses all but the most knowledgeable of bus user. My understanding of this proposal is that a successful franchisee would have sole rights and obligations to run specific services at specific times as is the case in London. Surely, this can only be a good thing.

But do all routes require a service 18/7 though . Some routes the amount of passengers using them drops off a cliff and there isn't a market for fresh air is there .