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Franchise funding - Rodney259 - 10/07/2025 09:45
I have just read an on-line report in the Manchester Evening News about the Bee Network cost and income and expenditure. It shows that only 47% of income (£183m out of £390m) comes from fares. It has been hailed as a great success with cheaper fares and more buses but one wonders whether the private (strangely nearly all foreign owned) companies would have done better. Given the level of subsidy required it doesn't seem so wonderful to me and there must be serious doubts that this level of local, and national, taxpayer contributions can continue in the longer term given the downward spiral of public finances. Is it really money well spent? Also, interesting that it is foreign owned companies who have benefitted rather than UK ones.
RE: Franchise funding - knutstransport - 10/07/2025 12:21
(10/07/2025 09:45)Rodney259 Wrote: It shows that only 47% of income (£183m out of £390m) comes from fares.
Greater Manchester has a £2 single fare cap, which as part of Bee Network, got extended to include short journeys involving a change of bus. As there's central government funding provided towards the fare caps (nationally) I imagine a significant chunk of funding comes from that, and the Bee Network introduction had little direct impact on that level.
Quote:Also, interesting that it is foreign owned companies who have benefitted rather than UK ones.
Do you have more context for that? Apart from Metroline, all the franchise holders are British and had operations in Greater Manchester prior to franchising. Arriva (who have a foreign parent) lost out. So are you saying Metroline make more profit off GM services, than Arriva did?
RE: Franchise funding - Rodney259 - 10/07/2025 16:35
(10/07/2025 12:21)knutstransport Wrote: Greater Manchester has a £2 single fare cap, which as part of Bee Network, got extended to include short journeys involving a change of bus. As there's central government funding provided towards the fare caps (nationally) I imagine a significant chunk of funding comes from that, and the Bee Network introduction had little direct impact on that level.
Do you have more context for that? Apart from Metroline, all the franchise holders are British and had operations in Greater Manchester prior to franchising. Arriva (who have a foreign parent) lost out. So are you saying Metroline make more profit off GM services, than Arriva did?
Go Ahead is 51% by Kinetic of Australia and 49% by Globalvia of Spain, Stagecoach is owned by the German firm DWS Infrastructure and, as you say, Metroline's parent is from Singapore. Only First and National Express are UK owned. Mind you, the car industry, mos breweries, Costa, Boots and many other 'British' companies are foreign owned also!
RE: Franchise funding - knutstransport - 10/07/2025 18:24
(10/07/2025 16:35)Rodney259 Wrote: Go Ahead is 51% by Kinetic of Australia and 49% by Globalvia of Spain, Stagecoach is owned by the German firm DWS Infrastructure and, as you say, Metroline's parent is from Singapore.
There may have been some foreign ownership I wasn't aware of. However, the thing I didn't get from your post is franchising introduced one new big operator to the area - Metroline, and it kicked out another of the big operators - Arriva. The others were already there.
Franchising has meant the big operators can't reject a route in their area because it doesn't make them enough money. For example, D&G used to send 2 buses up from Macclesfield to run a Stockport-Marple service, rather than TfGM being able to tell Stagecoach you have the Stockport depot - get on with running this service.
Quote:Only First and National Express are UK owned.
What's National Express got to do with Bee Network? Why not mention Rotala, as they have Bee Network franchises (and got awarded routes small operators like Vision used to have)?
To me it just reads like you want to have a foreign ownership of UK registered businesses rant, rather than want to make any meaningful points about the bus operations.
RE: Franchise funding - Rodney259 - 11/07/2025 16:28
(10/07/2025 18:24)knutstransport Wrote: There may have been some foreign ownership I wasn't aware of. However, the thing I didn't get from your post is franchising introduced one new big operator to the area - Metroline, and it kicked out another of the big operators - Arriva. The others were already there.
Franchising has meant the big operators can't reject a route in their area because it doesn't make them enough money. For example, D&G used to send 2 buses up from Macclesfield to run a Stockport-Marple service, rather than TfGM being able to tell Stagecoach you have the Stockport depot - get on with running this service.
What's National Express got to do with Bee Network? Why not mention Rotala, as they have Bee Network franchises (and got awarded routes small operators like Vision used to have)?
To me it just reads like you want to have a foreign ownership of UK registered businesses rant, rather than want to make any meaningful points about the bus operations.
I was just making the point that the proportion of the total income of the £390m income since franchising £207m came from the taxpayers both Nationally and Manchester. Labour have made a great show of how buses are back in public ownership', services are much better and this is a model for Merseyside, West and South Yorkshire, West Midlands, Tyneside etc. However, apart these observations are mainly untrue and a vast amount of money appears to have been spent on yellow paint. Given that, under the previous model funding was considerably less and cross subsidies were illegal it isn't surprising there had been a relatively slight improvement in services. Given the complete mess Labour are in with public finances I'm surprised they considered removing winter fuel allowance from all pensioners and PIP payments when that's can afford to throw money at conurbation bus services and saying that this is the best thing since sliced bread. Clearly the truth is somewhat different. Spending some of the £1bn n the decimated rural bus services I personally think would have benefitted those communities more than Mancunians who had a reasonable transport system anyway.
Concerning the ownership of the franchisees, apart from a few scraps allotted to First and Diamond, it is the Germans, Spanish, Australians and Singaporeans who are benefitting from tax payers money.
RE: Franchise funding - knutstransport - 11/07/2025 19:27
What you have to remember is the Metro Mayor positions were introduced by David Cameron's government. Andy Burnham may passionately speak out about local power but his position is a Conservative pet project, not a Labour one.Boris Johnson was PM when TfGM bus franchising was approved and you have to remember Boris Johnson was obsessed with buses when he was London Mayor.
The switch was already in progress when the general election was called. Do you think Rachel Reeves would have called for the project to the stopped, once public money had already been spent?
You still need to provide evidence to back up your claim. I'm very doubtful of Metroline Manchester having made a profit yet. I suspect they'd sue TfGM if the franchise was terminated before the end/any break clause because they incurred huge set up costs - being a newcomer with no drivers.
Foreign companies bidding for UK rail franchises hasn't always returned a profit. Abellio took a significant chunk of taxpayer's money from the original Northern franchise, due to the government awarding it on a "no growth" prediction. However, Arriva Rail North didn't send profits to Germany. They were barely covered their UK costs.
RE: Franchise funding - EDB325 - 11/07/2025 22:00
Meanwhile, I raised a complaint with TfGM earlier this week. I live on the service 11 Stockport - Altrincham route, and it can be very unreliable. I asked three specific questions.
I got a response today which seems to have been cobbled together using a substandard form of AI. Not only was there no attempt to answer ANY of the questions, but the writer saw fit to point out that "services are being run by different operators ". Hello? It's the 11! It was always a Stagecoach service, and Stockport is the only garage left unscathed by the reshuffle.
I have been surprisingly polite in my request that they actually answer my queries rather than just parrot platitudes that insult my intelligence.
Watch this space - if it's not resolved, I'll be writing direct to Andy Burnham, and copying in my MP.
RE: Franchise funding - knutstransport - 13/07/2025 10:21
TfGM don't have the best customer service. For many years people have been complaining about Metrolink's policy of terminating late running services at Timperley, when it sometimes results in people missing connections with trains at Altrincham. As the train service at Altrincham is an hourly service, and there should be a standard Metrolink service of 10 trams per hour, the complaint doesn't mean never terminate late running trams short, it just means people are asking them to avoid terminating a tram at Timperley if it's 10 minutes or so before the next tram departure from Altrincham. TfGM aren't interested in finding a solution - they just respond saying about keeping trams equally spaced in the city centre is their priority.
RE: Franchise funding - knutstransport - 14/07/2025 16:58
One thing I'll add about the Bee Network buses is the other day I caught a Stagecoach Enviro 400 City and thought - why's there no passenger information system, and then I realised it's a 8 year old bus that had been refurbished and looked almost new. So yes they could have added the information system at the same time, but given the 17 reg ex Cardiff buses at D&G look like they've been well used for 7 years, it's refreshing to see a nice interior.
RE: Franchise funding - knutstransport - Yesterday 18:07
Seems a MP is complaining that the 247 timetable does not meet the needs of commuters in the evening. https://www.facebook.com/groups/289090009975266/?multi_permalinks=1032597298957863&hoisted_section_header_type=recently_seen
Looks like someone presumed anyone working in Altrincham finishes work spot on 5, and didn't make allowances for people finishing at 5.30 or 6. Looks like the vehicle off the 16:50 Trafford Centre to Altrincham returns to depot.