First Manchester

[Mayneway]

RE: First Manchester

(11/02/2019 15:27)NorthernCounties Wrote:  I posted it the same day

Cheers for that I didn't see it

[gilesbus1]

RE: First Manchester
Its interesting about this comment, why did he not say it last year when the same rumours were circulating, on this forum anyway. Or is it because this time its going to happen. Also came across online a post made by an Oldham paper saying that all three depots may go to the same buyer if there was a wish by a buyer for this to happen, so guess they are trying to invite offers and weren't at that time talking to anybody, as if they knew they could categorically say all depots were to be sold off separately.

One hopes the new buyer has a large bank balance as they will need it to repair the damage that has been done already, no doubt the first things would be a route review and selected fare cuts. Then hopefully chance cleaning contractors for internal cleaning as the insides of the 2012/4 Enviro400's are a disgrace, so much so the insides of a cattle truck would be cleaner.

[johnluke]

RE: First Manchester

(10/02/2019 21:32)motormayhem1 Wrote:  It could make the franchising a bit difficult if it was bought out the public purse i think , as when the tendering process comes in (If franchising happens) then what happens if the public run company ends up with a large share of the routes.
I think Mr Souter would have something to say about unfair advantage.

Lol it would be nice to see router cry as he has give n many unfair advantages when he put other companies out of business

[johnluke]

RE: First Manchester
Souter

[gilesbus1]

RE: First Manchester
There is no prospect of it being bought by TfGM or anyone else like that as

a) It is not able to do so as explained by someone else in a previous post.
b) Council Tax would have to go up to pay for it and many residents who are not bus users and are car drivers would complain considering they would be expected to pay towards it, especially when it appears on Council Tax Statements

(Note values I have given are Hypothetical and do not represent true value of the company).
e.g. Purchasing First Manchester Ltd from First Group PLC £20,000,000.

I very much doubt that would be popular especially if the Health and Social Care Budgets or Education Budgets are effected and also if not would use up most of not all TfGM's annual budget if not more. The only way of getting money back if that was the case would be to close depots and we all know what a disaster that has been in the past for staff and customers, and selling the depots onto Property Developers.

First Manchester's only buyers will be operators who either do or are keen to operate in a regulated market.

There is no returning I am afraid to Greater Manchester Transport Buses being owned by local councils.

When Transport for London re-entered the bus market it was to bail out failing operators at a price that was cheaper to Council Tax payers than leaving it unresolved as there was no Private interests as the companies were heavily in debt and the bids placed for the work in Harris Buses case at least were too low, and TfL would have had to re-let the contracts at higher cost to the tax payer, and both operators, Harris Bus and Durham Travel services, together had less than 100 vehicles within London.

Of course many people liked Greater Manchester Transport because it was a structured operator that was accountable and transport as interchangeable and linked and fares were much lower, but tax costs were high, but in those days that was just accepted as the public knew nothing else, but now I doubt it would be acceptable to those who do not use the services provided which is the majority. Franchising is being selected as its the nearest that can be got to it at a cost effective price, e.g not owning the infrastructure (vehicles and depots) but controlling the structure through regulation.

Incidentally I have no political alliance I am just a realist and unfortunately there are more important things in life than whether the local Councils own the buses.

Sorry to rant on.

[Mayneway]

RE: First Manchester

(11/02/2019 19:35)gilesbus1 Wrote:  Its interesting about this comment, why did he not say it last year when the same rumours were circulating, on this forum anyway. Or is it because this time its going to happen. Also came across online a post made by an Oldham paper saying that all three depots may go to the same buyer if there was a wish by a buyer for this to happen, so guess they are trying to invite offers and weren't at that time talking to anybody, as if they knew they could categorically say all depots were to be sold off separately.

I think he's spoken out now because there's possibly a bit more weight to it all. Talking to a couple of First drivers yesterday who genuinely think it's in the pipeline. IF it happens it could prove very interesting.

[gilesbus1]

RE: First Manchester

(12/02/2019 10:47)Mayneway Wrote:  I think he's spoken out now because there's possibly a bit more weight to it all. Talking to a couple of First drivers yesterday who genuinely think it's in the pipeline. IF it happens it could prove very interesting.

Yes I think there is something in the pipeline with it as its the CEO of FirstGroup who's let it slip. There are all sorts of other stumbling blocks as well in this, like one off-putting situation might be the need to change livery when a combined authority would make the operator adopt theirs at a later stage all at vast cost.

The need to find a name, one of the issues in the past has been that the fleet names are too long and therefore potentially something shorter is needed the only name I could think of is Norman. North Manchester Buses, that then kind of gives the buses a personality, a human factor which is maybe one of the things whats missing (lol). :laugh1:

Also maybe other things are route branding again so people not using the bus knows where its actually going and how often it is, a lot of these losses have come since Overground and Gold Service branding have been scrapped. Route branding I think gives the appeal of ownership to Passengers e.g. its our bus and leads to it less likely to be littered with wadges of rubbish and graffiti and also the more likely passengers are to use it also on-board timetables and timetables pushed through the door might also help. Route branding in other towns and cities as helped the market grow, flat boring liveries attract no-one, and as i've said before the need to have cheaper fares on routes that shadow Metrolink, so Metrolink isn't the cheapest option any longer and also the need to speed up journeys through talks with TfGM and the local Councils about extra further bus lanes and also possible congestion charging or pollution taxes should they come back onto the table.

Then there are the vehicles in my opinion all of the 2012 and 2014 Enviro Enviro400's need to be refurbished as a matter of urgency, I can't comment on the Enviro300's because I don't generally use them because they are at Oldham. Inroads need to be made to replace the outstanding Minibuses and then start on replacing the Volvo B7RLE's all of which should be done at the rate of about 30-50 buses a year so the fleet is always fresh and always has something new to offer.

Then there is the depot situation, are all depots in the right locations and operating the right routes, for example could Bury be re-opened, to replace Manchester or might a depot in Rochdale replace part of Manchester and all of Oldham and the rest of Manchester's work go to Bolton and new routes link the bits in between or could making SOU depots again to operate routes of importance such as Vantage and the 582 say, in Leigh help, e.g smaller depot more able to look after vehicles, know vehicles, know customers, clean better and keep a good image on those routes were lots of investment have gone in.

Anyway all that is for the future but should all be interesting.

[WhiteVanMan]

RE: First Manchester

(11/02/2019 23:52)johnluke Wrote:  Lol it would be nice to see router cry as he has give n many unfair advantages when he put other companies out of business

Total agree

[Brickmill]

RE: First Manchester

(12/02/2019 00:35)gilesbus1 Wrote:  Of course many people liked Greater Manchester Transport because it was a structured operator that was accountable and transport as interchangeable and linked and fares were much lower, but tax costs were high, but in those days that was just accepted as the public knew nothing else, but now I doubt it would be acceptable to those who do not use the services provided which is the majority. Franchising is being selected as its the nearest that can be got to it at a cost effective price, e.g not owning the infrastructure (vehicles and depots) but controlling the structure through regulation.

I'm not so sure the public knew "nothing else", I think its more that domestic politics have changed since 1979....and very much for the worse. Call me naive (it was the late 70s) but in Economics and Politics, I was taught that Britain was a "mixed Economy", whereby any industry which provided something that was NOT needed, but was generally affordable to all as at least an occasional treat, was privately run with no public financing. Anything, that was/is needed, the NHS, Emergency Services, Clean Water, Domestic Fuel and, yes, basic forms of public transport, were provided wholly or partly through taxation. This had a tendency for the "rich" to subsidise the "poor". In terms of buses, this could realistically mean subsidising your friend/relation/neighbour's bus journey to work, which in turn left said acquaintance with disposable income to take an active part in the economy and society.....and slow the growth of traffic congestion at the same time,
However, we are now in different times, with the country run by the most (geographically) centralist Whitehall for many a century and the strongest, most powerful Media machine in history. This results in deep prejudices (and not just the headline ones), gross generalisations and demonisation of people who don't conform to 21st century Ideals. In other words, today's middle class/income loudmouths don't have the power of independant thought and if some billionaire Media icon tells them the poor/ill or indeed, carless should be despised, they don't question it. To them, taxes are to subsidise the Rich, the Powerful and the Conformist. They aren't intellegent enough to recognise that roughly half a million Carless Adult taxpayers in Greater Manchester, even exist, so they can hardly evaluate the effects of those half a million having better access to jobs, medical facilities, healthy(er) food, wider socially circles etc etc. All of which reduce poor health, generally poverty/debt and I would wager Crime. Oh! And I nearly forgot.............Congestion.

This might seem like blatant (if not exactly BBC2-style hypocracy) politicking, but it is relevant to the problems (largely self inflicted) facing First and other bus companies.

Finally, minor correction/clarification for giles; Franchising has NOT yet been selected. Three major options are being - or, I dare say *have been* - evaluated, to be presented via GMCA to the Elected Mayor. These are;

1. Continued Deregulation, but greater use of 2017 Powers to integrate Fares and other minor improvements.

2. Enhanced Quality Partnerships; You know how Trump wants to build a wall to keep Mexicans out AND charge them for the privelige? Well, for Mexico, think eastern Greater Manchester and you get the idea of an) EQP. Stagecoach's Media Release from some months ago, doesn't exactly disguise this - even if their detailed plans are now scuppered by getting financing for barely a third of the the e-buses they wanted,

3. Franchising; GMCA control over Routes, Fares, service levels, vehicle quality and probably livery etc. This would be similar to the London model, but based more on re-balancing services according to genuine, established need than on throwing money at everything. It will be let on a mix of large network based contracts and smaller town/area based ones, thus ensuring Operators of all sizes will have the oppurtunity to bid for Franchises.

A Public Consultation is still expected to take place later this year, before a final decision is made. According to the MEN, this will now be "the end of the year".

[Quackdave]

RE: First Manchester

(12/02/2019 00:35)gilesbus1 Wrote:  Of course many people liked Greater Manchester Transport because it was a structured operator that was accountable and transport as interchangeable and linked and fares were much lower, but tax costs were high, but in those days that was just accepted as the public knew nothing else, but now I doubt it would be acceptable to those who do not use the services provided which is the majority.

I would suggest that even if the majority don't use the services directly, the majority do use the roads of Greater Manchester; and are therefore using the services of public transport indirectly, i.e. keeping those roads from grinding to a halt through an excess of cars.

In any case, assuming that the services of a hypothetical publicly-owned bus operator were priced to break even (once the initial cost of re-acquisition had been paid off), there would be absolutely no reason for this to be "not acceptable" to the majority, since it would be costing them nothing.