Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

[EDB325]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(05/03/2019 13:08)gilesbus1 Wrote:  Interestingly its come to replace a burnt example as part of an insurance payout and is to standard Stagecoach specification, presume this was built to test out Euro 6 Hybrid Engines at ADL.

I'm fairly sure it's always been Euro 6, and as 80022 it ran for some time in both Manchester and Liverpool.

[Brickmill]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(05/03/2019 13:08)gilesbus1 Wrote:  Interestingly its come to replace a burnt example as part of an insurance payout and is to standard Stagecoach specification, presume this was built to test out Euro 6 Hybrid Engines at ADL.

It has replaced 12054 which I assume will be written off, with 12258 being a permanent replacement. As regards the CleanAir directive, I don't suppose any knows what was said in Friday's meeting. Typical Media report the meeting will happen but don't report the outcome. Specifically, what was said about paying for the retrofitting. One reply above said GMCA would ask Central Government to pay the full cost, but I got the impression "ask" was the polite version....

[gilesbus1]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(05/03/2019 20:22)Brickmill Wrote:  It has replaced 12054 which I assume will be written off, with 12258 being a permanent replacement. As regards the CleanAir directive, I don't suppose any knows what was said in Friday's meeting. Typical Media report the meeting will happen but don't report the outcome. Specifically, what was said about paying for the retrofitting. One reply above said GMCA would ask Central Government to pay the full cost, but I got the impression "ask" was the polite version....

Retrofitting of some fleet buses would be the most cost effective option though, no matter who pays for it, rather than either paying the £100 fine to enter or use within Greater Manchester or else to replace vast amounts of fleet, obviously to renew large proportions of fleet just isn't economically practical, and the smaller the fleet, the worse the outcome.

The other point should be though that larger operators if they find it a problem have only them selves to blame for slashing fleet replacement to nothing or next to nothing, in fact the 4 recent new buses delivered to Diamond North West are the first new buses for a Greater Manchester operation for some time.

An operation like Stagecoach Manchester should be buying at least 40 buses a year to maintain a life span of circa 16 years, for the last two years the number of vehicles purchased has totalled 5, hardly sufficient to make any dent, at FirstGroup the situation is worse with a need to buy about 20-30 a year, over the last two years nothing has been bought, then all that were bought in the two years before for solely for the Vantage Service and were bought with TfGM finance/Support, hardly a satisfactory situation for a major operator.

Arriva haven't bought any new buses for use in Manchester since Hybrid Deckers, that they then moved away to Merseyside a couple of years later, some 8 years ago or so, they probably need to invest in about 7 new buses a year for Greater Manchester work, although their Manchester opp's have been being thinned back for some years.

Presume one way forward would be for more Government Grants to be awarded if they are setting the agenda on Pollution, in Greater Manchester, in twelve months time, to replace a further tranche of vehicles, these should go onto other routes instead of the two concentrations this time in South Manchester and Leigh.

[Brickmill]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(05/03/2019 21:00)gilesbus1 Wrote:  Retrofitting of some fleet buses would be the most cost effective option though, no matter who pays for it, rather than either paying the £100 fine to enter or use within Greater Manchester or else to replace vast amounts of fleet, obviously to renew large proportions of fleet just isn't economically practical, and the smaller the fleet, the worse the outcome.

The other point should be though that larger operators if they find it a problem have only them selves to blame for slashing fleet replacement to nothing or next to nothing, in fact the 4 recent new buses delivered to Diamond North West are the first new buses for a Greater Manchester operation for some time.

An operation like Stagecoach Manchester should be buying at least 40 buses a year to maintain a life span of circa 16 years, for the last two years the number of vehicles purchased has totalled 5, hardly sufficient to make any dent, at FirstGroup the situation is worse with a need to buy about 20-30 a year, over the last two years nothing has been bought, then all that were bought in the two years before for solely for the Vantage Service and were bought with TfGM finance/Support, hardly a satisfactory situation for a major operator.

Arriva haven't bought any new buses for use in Manchester since Hybrid Deckers, that they then moved away to Merseyside a couple of years later, some 8 years ago or so, they probably need to invest in about 7 new buses a year for Greater Manchester work, although their Manchester opp's have been being thinned back for some years.

Presume one way forward would be for more Government Grants to be awarded if they are setting the agenda on Pollution, in Greater Manchester, in twelve months time, to replace a further tranche of vehicles, these should go onto other routes instead of the two concentrations this time in South Manchester and Leigh.

Totally agree regards lack of investment bit like so many things the issue is not who is to blame but who will be punished and how will they react. In their PR opposing Franchising and bidding for 105 e -buses last year, Stagecoach made it clear that not only would the e-Buses be used in South M'cr but other environmentally friendly buses would be moved to concentrate them in South M'cr, Trafford and Salford. With continued De-reg that means the cost would be borne by the individual routes/journeys accruing the fine. Ergo the captive markets outside Ty favoured three boroughs not only get the oldest buses on what are already the most expensive routes, but those passengers will end up paying the fine.

[SK15 GZG (Moderator)]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(05/03/2019 21:00)gilesbus1 Wrote:  Arriva haven't bought any new buses for use in Manchester since Hybrid Deckers, that they then moved away to Merseyside a couple of years later, some 8 years ago or so, they probably need to invest in about 7 new buses a year for Greater Manchester work, although their Manchester opp's have been being thinned back for some years.

Bolton's hybrids transferred to Birkenhead in 2016

[gilesbus1]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(05/03/2019 21:15)Brickmill Wrote:  Totally agree regards lack of investment bit like so many things the issue is not who is to blame but who will be punished and how will they react. In their PR opposing Franchising and bidding for 105 e -buses last year, Stagecoach made it clear that not only would the e-Buses be used in South M'cr but other environmentally friendly buses would be moved to concentrate them in South M'cr, Trafford and Salford. With continued De-reg that means the cost would be borne by the individual routes/journeys accruing the fine. Ergo the captive markets outside Ty favoured three boroughs not only get the oldest buses on what are already the most expensive routes, but those passengers will end up paying the fine.

Yes agree that shouldn't be the case, something needs to be worked out for alternative funding of course there is not only the risk of this being past on through the fare box but also through further service cuts. The only immediate answer I guess, is the green bus fund to some degree, and maybe some other schemes might exist elsewhere to pay towards new vehicles. Lets not forget though similar stuff is happening in Glasgow and there First Glasgow seems happy to pay for the replacements though I can't comment on what effect that has had on fares or any service cuts, as I simply don't know. There are obviously penalties with the charge on lorries as well in that the cost of goods might increase with that.

[Quackdave]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(05/03/2019 21:00)gilesbus1 Wrote:  An operation like Stagecoach Manchester should be buying at least 40 buses a year to maintain a life span of circa 16 years, for the last two years the number of vehicles purchased has totalled 5, hardly sufficient to make any dent

Any dent in what? You imply a fleet renewal deficit, but apart from the Iveco school buses (which I believe are TfGM's), the oldest buses in the fleet are just over twelve years old - so to maintain a life span of circa 16 years, they must buy precisely nothing new for at least the next three years!

[gilesbus1]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(05/03/2019 23:02)Quackdave Wrote:  Any dent in what? You imply a fleet renewal deficit, but apart from the Iveco school buses (which I believe are TfGM's), the oldest buses in the fleet are just over twelve years old - so to maintain a life span of circa 16 years, they must buy precisely nothing new for at least the next three years!

That means uneven buying practices in several years and I am aware this has happened in the past, in Stagecoach 2008 and 2009 were noticeable for this, In FirstGroup 2005/6/8 and 2012 are noticeable for it, this is not an ideal practice as it means if a company has a large loss when a large percentage of the fleet is due to be replaced they wont be able to afford it. Smaller quantities spread over several years is better, and to deal with the amount needed to be replaced then its better to act now and spread fleet renewal across the lifespan of vehicles.

The problem is large fleets tend to invest all resources were they think profitability is at a given time, or were they think the local authority will invest in bus priority measures, more to the point, 2008/9 was because they expected Congestion charging in Greater Manchester to be implemented, as soon as they knew it wasn't being, they cut it back, with First diverting buses to places such as Glasgow and West Yorkshire. Stagecoach just cutting back on investment, note they bought little 2010 for Manchester, except for the first few hybrids they had grant money towards out of the 2010/1 batch.

I will give GMPTE credit, in that they spread investment more or less equally from 1972 to 1986 to maintain a 12/13 year life span and give say 1972/3/4 and 1980/3 there were no large trofts of vehicles and that in 1972-1974 was due to replacing ageing fleets of the operators they had taken over, e.g Salford was running buses from 1952 as was Leigh and Oldham.

[SK15 GZG (Moderator)]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(06/03/2019 00:32)gilesbus1 Wrote:  That means uneven buying practices in several years

Does it matter?

(06/03/2019 00:32)gilesbus1 Wrote:  The problem is large fleets tend to invest all resources were they think profitability is at a given time

Operators invest in their most profitable routes/areas more frequently because they know they'll get a decent return on their investment. That's how it works

[Brickmill]

RE: Stagecoach Manchester and Wigan

(06/03/2019 18:16)Y474 KNF Wrote:  Does it matter?
Yes. It creates spikes in engineering needs eg a disproportionate number of buses needing refurbishment at the same time - although First and Stagecoach seem to get round the problem by simply not refurbishing buses at all.

Operators invest in their most profitable routes/areas more frequently because they know they'll get a decent return on their investment. That's how it works

More free market theory. Stagecoach Manchester "invested" in 10463-87, 10609/10 for the 201/203 in 2015 on this basis, but since late 2017, there have been many, many occasions when barely half the workings have been from this batch, with the rest made up of standard Enviro400s up to 11 years old. See also above referenced lack of refurbishment.,.. And no, I'm not talking peak times only.