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De-regulation - Its a hobby - 17/08/2012 06:51
Having read some posts in other threads on a similar note, I thought a thread on D regulation would be a good idea to have a good moan!
Here goes "What a fantastic success this has been".
I love the fact that competition does not really exisit. I love the fact the customer has no choice. I love the fact that on Wirral a QBP starts off with buses as old as my Nan.
I love the fact that when a small independent operator (local) tries to introduce new routes that the big boys did not want to try or look at mention no names (first) (arriva) ALLOW it to begin with, then get arsey and throw their size 12's about. Its ok for them to do the tendered work, but how dare you even contemplate going through the tunnel. I love the fact that Merseytravel stand back and allow as happened in the past Big Companies to saturate a route so that eventually the smaller independent can cope making a loss and go bust.
I love the fact merseytravel allow 6 buses to go past at 01,02,03,04,05,06 mins past the hour and then nothing for another hour on a regular occuance. This happens in many areas and on many routes.
I love the colourful range of liveries used "Happy ALS" maroon is a prime example (lol)
NO NO NO
give me good old fashioned Seview Road, Laird Street, Verona Green and Cream, Crosville Green, any day.
We the public have been conned. D Regulation has never worked in the way it was intended. The only people that have done well are the Fat Cats, that never use a blinking bus in their life. Rant Over "Have a nice day":
RE: D Regulation - T42 PVM - 17/08/2012 07:06
i fro one would say some companys made it work well, look at jim stones and SLT 2 small companys giving us 5 star service
RE: D Regulation - Willowbrook - 17/08/2012 08:44
The National bus company and the big Passenger Transport Executives weren't perfect. Other than some very good areas, they all failed to spot changes in demand and passenger need. They all needed a very good shake up.
Deregulation is really a misnomer as there is probably more regulation now than there ever was in the past.
Privatisation was the problem, some things should always be kept in public ownership. The is a reason for their names, Public Utilities and Public Transport. I understand the arguments that the government of the time made, but I don't think they were right. Part of me thinks they knew that but also knew they were on their way out of government and wanted their followers to have some painful legacies.
RE: De-regulation - ace - 17/08/2012 15:22
There's always somebody that has to come up with a load of baloney isn't there?
Competition doesn't exist? The customer has no choice? Is that why there are so many good bus companies out there?
Stagecoach, First, Arriva, and many more. All providing modern buses at competitive prices.
What did we have before? Slow, old, smelly, unreliable buses that were about as environmentally friendly as a park bonfire.
And there are plenty of smaller companies around, doing very nicely thankyou.
And I do understand it all happened in 1986, the year before Thatcher won the biggest majority ever won in a General Election, so they were hardly on their way out of Government.
Have a lovely weekend.
RE: De-regulation - St Helens Rider - 17/08/2012 15:56
I think in the early days there was genuine competition in most parts of the country but now it is quite common for an area to just have one big group running the major profitable corridors with small independents running marginal/subsidised routes which the big guys won't touch. My arguement is that is deregulation is that good, how come it wasn't good enough for London?
As stated earlier, Public Transport should be just that - public owned and publicly accountable.
RE: De-regulation - K101HUM - 17/08/2012 16:03
(17/08/2012 15:22)ace Wrote: There's always somebody that has to come up with a load of baloney isn't there?
Competition doesn't exist? The customer has no choice? Is that why there are so many good bus companies out there?
Stagecoach, First, Arriva, and many more. All providing modern buses at competitive prices.
What did we have before? Slow, old, smelly, unreliable buses that were about as environmentally friendly as a park bonfire.
And there are plenty of smaller companies around, doing very nicely thankyou.
And I do understand it all happened in 1986, the year before Thatcher won the biggest majority ever won in a General Election, so they were hardly on their way out of Government.
Have a lovely weekend.
Just a couple of points here, do please define as to when the streets were graced your quoted old, smelly, unreliable buses? I do believe this was accomplished through the introduction of de-regulation, meaning it was economically viable for new market entrants to purchase ageing vehicles as a way to enter the market. A local example being Fareway in the late 80's, purchasing ex MPTE VR's. The Merseyside Transport fleet at the turn of the 80's had an fleet age of approximately 6.49 years according to the fleet lists, thus showing prolonged investment in the fleet when dependant on the state. An average fleet age in 1988 for the Merseybus fleet (which stood several hundred vehicles fewer than that on 1979) was approximately 9.39 years, albeit discounting the investment in the Dodge S56 minibuses and the imminent arrival of the E-WBG Olympians. A further point being a sizeable segment of the MTL fleet formed upon the final step in privatisation in 1993 to form MTL Trust Holdings were Atlanteans approaching 20 years old. Somewhat different to that of 1979...wouldn't you agree?
Upon de-regulation, there were many communities on Merseyside who were without any means of viable transport solutions which had various affects on lifestyle. Here you can refer to a in-depth study performed in 1990 by Rob Donald and Laurie Pickup. Areas such as Netherley, Croxteth and Speke with particular reference. A surge in fare prices simply meant people were priced of a bus network which proved unreliable at that particular moment in time. It was highlighted families were spending 10% of household income on public transport (solely bus, as the 3 areas are not served by the Merseyrail network, highlighting a sole reliance on bus travel for journeys past a tolerable walking distance) and such financial restraints meant private car ownership was uncommon.
I think there will be an abundance of arguments and counter-arguments in response to such beliefs.
A post de-regulated structure, it could be argued, has simply transferred monopolies from public sector ownership, to the private sector. However, through this we have since gained market stability and, looking locally to Stagecoach and Arriva, increasingly modern fleets. The latter can be down to the presence of competitive pressure. Something evident in 2006 when Arriva started to invest heavily in the fleet...just as Stagecoach began the mammoth task of overturning the inherited Glenvale fleet.
And the formation of 'good' companies. Going back to the question of market stability, Manchester residents and users of FirstBus may contest that statement.
RE: De-regulation - ace - 17/08/2012 18:33
I think my definition of slow, old, smelly and unreliable stems from my school days back in the early 1980's.
We had a school bus run by GM buses, much the same as everything else at that time. The bus was supposed to arrive at 8.40 every morning. Very often it would turn up at 8.55, making about 60-70 children late for school. The number of times our school Secretary was on the phone to GM to complain was ridiculous. She was a very patient woman normally, but you could tell after a while she was getting fed up of it. And that was when it bothered to turn up at all.
Very often we would just get the normal service bus, due to arrive 8.38, usually arrived around 8.50ish. I remember one morning in 1983, 4 of us went for the service bus when the school bus failed to turn up. It was almost 9.00 by this time and we were late for school. We got to the bus stop at 9.01, bus due 9.03, at 9.10 up rolled a 10 year old M registered GM bus. It was going that slow, my mate sitting next to me said 'We could run faster than this bloody bus'. It stank of cigarettes, as smoking was allowed on buses at that time, smelly black smoke belching from the exhaust, and we eventually arrived at school at 9.30. School teacher wasn't happy, secretary yet again rang to complain to GM, and a few weeks later there was a big assembly about it with the Headmaster. He was not happy one bit.
As for fares, well, weekly passes were introduced upon de-regulation, much cheaper than normal fares and have lasted strong to this day on many services.
And yes, you're right. It was a mammoth task for Stagecoach and other companies to overturn fleets left behind in the wake of public ownership. Looks like they've got it right now though.
This is just my experience, but highlights the reasons why I think de-regulation has worked.
It may not be perfect all of the time, but surely a vast improvement on how we used to live.
RE: De-regulation - LJ51DCX - 17/08/2012 19:37
(17/08/2012 18:33)ace Wrote: I think my definition of slow, old, smelly and unreliable stems from my school days back in the early 1980's.
We had a school bus run by GM buses, much the same as everything else at that time. The bus was supposed to arrive at 8.40 every morning. Very often it would turn up at 8.55, making about 60-70 children late for school. The number of times our school Secretary was on the phone to GM to complain was ridiculous. She was a very patient woman normally, but you could tell after a while she was getting fed up of it. And that was when it bothered to turn up at all.
Very often we would just get the normal service bus, due to arrive 8.38, usually arrived around 8.50ish. I remember one morning in 1983, 4 of us went for the service bus when the school bus failed to turn up. It was almost 9.00 by this time and we were late for school. We got to the bus stop at 9.01, bus due 9.03, at 9.10 up rolled a 10 year old M registered GM bus. It was going that slow, my mate sitting next to me said 'We could run faster than this bloody bus'. It stank of cigarettes, as smoking was allowed on buses at that time, smelly black smoke belching from the exhaust, and we eventually arrived at school at 9.30. School teacher wasn't happy, secretary yet again rang to complain to GM, and a few weeks later there was a big assembly about it with the Headmaster. He was not happy one bit.
As for fares, well, weekly passes were introduced upon de-regulation, much cheaper than normal fares and have lasted strong to this day on many services.
And yes, you're right. It was a mammoth task for Stagecoach and other companies to overturn fleets left behind in the wake of public ownership. Looks like they've got it right now though.
This is just my experience, but highlights the reasons why I think de-regulation has worked.
It may not be perfect all of the time, but surely a vast improvement on how we used to live.
I think that has more to do with things moving forward in general rather than deregulation, take a humble Dennis Dart for example of the way engine technology and electrical advances have moved on from the first Carlyle and Reeve Burgess examples to the modern day ADL's.
To be honest though in the 70's when i were a lad bus fleets were just as modern then with vast numbers of Leyland Nationals, Leopards and Atlanteans, Bristol VR's just to name a few were entering service all over the country with NBC the PTE's and Municipal operators. To be honest from a member of joe publics point of view the early years of deregulation were something best forgotten in many areas.
RE: De-regulation - 126th street - 18/08/2012 16:33
(17/08/2012 06:51)Its a hobby Wrote: I love the fact that Merseytravel stand back and allow as happened in the past Big Companies to saturate a route so that eventually the smaller independent can cope making a loss and go bust.Commercial services with the exception of QBPs are nothing to do with Merseytravel; they have no say in how they are run.
(17/08/2012 06:51)Its a hobby Wrote: I love the fact merseytravel allow 6 buses to go past at 01,02,03,04,05,06 mins past the hour and then nothing for another hour on a regular occuance.See above.
Really if you're going to have a moan about deregulation you'd do a lot better to (a)get your facts right in the first place; and (b)not make things up to suit your agenda.
RE: De-regulation - skelmersey - 18/08/2012 21:00
(17/08/2012 18:33)ace Wrote: I think my definition of slow, old, smelly and unreliable stems from my school days back in the early 1980's.
We had a school bus run by GM buses, much the same as everything else at that time. The bus was supposed to arrive at 8.40 every morning. Very often it would turn up at 8.55, making about 60-70 children late for school. The number of times our school Secretary was on the phone to GM to complain was ridiculous. She was a very patient woman normally, but you could tell after a while she was getting fed up of it. And that was when it bothered to turn up at all.
Very often we would just get the normal service bus, due to arrive 8.38, usually arrived around 8.50ish. I remember one morning in 1983, 4 of us went for the service bus when the school bus failed to turn up. It was almost 9.00 by this time and we were late for school. We got to the bus stop at 9.01, bus due 9.03, at 9.10 up rolled a 10 year old M registered GM bus. It was going that slow, my mate sitting next to me said 'We could run faster than this bloody bus'. It stank of cigarettes, as smoking was allowed on buses at that time, smelly black smoke belching from the exhaust, and we eventually arrived at school at 9.30. School teacher wasn't happy, secretary yet again rang to complain to GM, and a few weeks later there was a big assembly about it with the Headmaster. He was not happy one bit.
As for fares, well, weekly passes were introduced upon de-regulation, much cheaper than normal fares and have lasted strong to this day on many services.
And yes, you're right. It was a mammoth task for Stagecoach and other companies to overturn fleets left behind in the wake of public ownership. Looks like they've got it right now though.
This is just my experience, but highlights the reasons why I think de-regulation has worked.
It may not be perfect all of the time, but surely a vast improvement on how we used to live.
De-rugulation has not worked, you say you travalled to school in the early 80's but GM buses did not appear until d-reg in oct '86!!
In October '86 the big companies were split so that there were no monopaly anywhere but look at the situation now, even worse