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RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising - teenagewasteland - 23/07/2023 21:04
This is a very emotive subject with quite different polarising opinions.
It's quite ironic that a Conservative government is giving the green light to these franchising schemes. The 1985 Transport Act was supposed to do away with what they deemed was State interference in the operation of bus services - that's one thing - but the main push behind deregulation was to sell-off State assets to the private sector, the profits of these sales to fund tax-cuts for the well-off. Anything and everything that was in public ownership was fair game, probably culminating in the sale of British Rail to the private sector.
For those of us who remember the state of affairs before the 26th October 1986, it was fairly straightforward, Merseyside PTE had a statutory responsibility under the 1968 Transport Act to operate, administer, co-ordinate and fund a properly integrated transport system for the Merseyside county. At MPTE's zenith, probably just before Merseyside County Council was abolished, our local transport needs involved relatively low-fares (based on the South Yorkshire PTE model) and a high-level of bus-rail integration where possible (based on the Tyne And Wear PTE system). Annual vehicle purchases, based on standardisation of the Leyland Atlantean, gave the county a quite modern fleet. Operating agreements with both Ribble and Crosville, both of whom operated about 25% of the network, ensured the NBC were not forcibly pushed out as they were in Manchester or Birmingham. There was a good deal of integration with little wastage. It wasn't perfect, things went wrong, but it generally worked.
Call me a Luddite (or anything else) but I liked that system - I still do. Deregulation has been a disaster, it was forced upon the industry to make a political point because the only winners were the UK Government of the late 1980s, and the corporations / foreign governments who, today, own the major bus operators in this country.
Just as franchising could be seen as political point-scoring too. To be quite honest, I don't think franchising goes far enough - but it's a start. For the last 37 years, Merseyside PTE has looked on, often unable to sort out the mess left behind by bus companies who decide that a service that doesn't make them a profit is withdrawn - without care or consideration to the travelling public who rely on it. Often, in the near past, I've had to make constant alternative arrangements for my travel habits because an operator has the power to change something without going through any sort of due process. So the alternative is to use a car, which I do, so they've lost me for good.
It is a political-driven agenda, but for the right cause and a Socialist cause. I do think that the LCR and Merseytravel (who would implement franchising) are on the same page about this. I really don't care about the financial or business case for franchising, I would be happy to pay in increased precept in my rates to pay for this new model. Most people should be willing to invest into the greater good. If not, I suspect you're part of the problem and not the solution.
RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising - CUL 73V - 24/07/2023 00:12
The reality is that in order to put this into practice, it's going to cost money the city region cannot afford. Start up costs would require a £341 million loan, with associated interest payments estimated at £140 million. Additional capital will also have to be borrowed to purchase depots and fleets from operators. Estimated interest payments for this loan are £150 million. When you add all of those figures up, we're looking at close to a billion pounds to implement bus franchising in the Liverpool City Region. This simply isn't a worthwhile investment whichever way you look at it. Cheaper fares won't happen, nor will less profitable services be reinstated because that money will need to be paid back within a reasonable time period. A significant increase in ridership would be required, which franchising isn't going to achieve. There's no incentive for car drivers to leave their car at home and use the bus instead.
Public control will not solve the major issues bus transport in this region faces, the biggest of these being the people in charge telling us they can run the region's buses better than Arriva, Stagecoach, et al. They can't, because they can't even devise a tendered route network properly and have made the city centre harder to travel across by bus. Merseytravel has wasted obscene amounts of taxpayer money on vanity projects with absolutely no accountability whatsoever. How on earth are these the right officials and organisations to run all of the region's buses?
Some of us would rather consider whether this is a worthwhile investment while public services in this region are sub standard. I'm happy to pay more taxes for improving healthcare, education and having decent roads, but not for what will inevitably be a badly mismanaged financial basket case. In this case, the political ideology of public ownership is not the answer, nor will it ever be.
RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising - iMarkeh - 24/07/2023 11:24
(24/07/2023 00:12)CUL 73V Wrote: The reality is that in order to put this into practice, it's going to cost money the city region cannot afford. Start up costs would require a £341 million loan, with associated interest payments estimated at £140 million. Additional capital will also have to be borrowed to purchase depots and fleets from operators. Estimated interest payments for this loan are £150 million. When you add all of those figures up, we're looking at close to a billion pounds to implement bus franchising in the Liverpool City Region. This simply isn't a worthwhile investment whichever way you look at it. Cheaper fares won't happen, nor will less profitable services be reinstated because that money will need to be paid back within a reasonable time period. A significant increase in ridership would be required, which franchising isn't going to achieve. There's no incentive for car drivers to leave their car at home and use the bus instead.To put it into perspective, £1bn would cover the costs of putting 100 free buses into the Merseyside bus network for the next 50-60 years.
RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising - North West Bus Spotter - 24/07/2023 14:02
(24/07/2023 00:12)CUL 73V Wrote: The reality is that in order to put this into practice, it's going to cost money the city region cannot afford. Start up costs would require a £341 million loan, with associated interest payments estimated at £140 million. Additional capital will also have to be borrowed to purchase depots and fleets from operators. Estimated interest payments for this loan are £150 million. When you add all of those figures up, we're looking at close to a billion pounds to implement bus franchising in the Liverpool City Region. This simply isn't a worthwhile investment whichever way you look at it. Cheaper fares won't happen, nor will less profitable services be reinstated because that money will need to be paid back within a reasonable time period. A significant increase in ridership would be required, which franchising isn't going to achieve. There's no incentive for car drivers to leave their car at home and use the bus instead.I want to touch onto this a little bit, they withdrew the X1 a few years ago because apparently it was getting no money but what they weren't thinking is that it was earning them money during the peak hours and throughout the day, I couldn't even get a seat sometimes if I got on at the Old Town! I know I was young when the X1 was around but trust me, I remember. Another reason they withdrew it was because of dickheads throwing things at the buses when MP Travel had it but with the money they were getting off the X1 before the pandemic, they easily would of had about £1,200 a day as my estimate. If we also think about the PVR for the route, Arriva used to use 4 buses covering a half hour service which if we think about it, that isn't too bad. I do get how it would have been about £200-£300 per bus a day but with the money they were getting off the X1 + other routes at that time, it could have easily been covered.
Public control will not solve the major issues bus transport in this region faces, the biggest of these being the people in charge telling us they can run the region's buses better than Arriva, Stagecoach, et al. They can't, because they can't even devise a tendered route network properly and have made the city centre harder to travel across by bus. Merseytravel has wasted obscene amounts of taxpayer money on vanity projects with absolutely no accountability whatsoever. How on earth are these the right officials and organisations to run all of the region's buses?
Some of us would rather consider whether this is a worthwhile investment while public services in this region are sub standard. I'm happy to pay more taxes for improving healthcare, education and having decent roads, but not for what will inevitably be a badly mismanaged financial basket case. In this case, the political ideology of public ownership is not the answer, nor will it ever be.
RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising - lcm453 - 24/07/2023 15:13
Bus franchising for LCR isn't about turning back the clock. Even the current government has realised that privatisation of bus services isn't working otherwise they would not have changed their approach to this. Many of the views expressed on this forum have some valid points but don't forget another reason for doing this is to reduce pollution as well as reliance on cars. Whether or not this works will depend on subsidy from the government to improve services in terms of cost to the fare-paying passenger, safety of the network and reliability. If successful the amount of subsidy required will decrease over time. Let's hope that the Metropolitan Authorities adopting franchising get it right.
RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising - Raawwwrrr! - 24/07/2023 16:35
(24/07/2023 14:02)North West Bus Spotter Wrote: I want to touch onto this a little bit, they withdrew the X1 a few years ago because apparently it was getting no money but what they weren't thinking is that it was earning them money during the peak hours and throughout the day, I couldn't even get a seat sometimes if I got on at the Old Town! I know I was young when the X1 was around but trust me, I remember. Another reason they withdrew it was because of duckheads throwing things at the buses when MP Travel had it but with the money they were getting off the X1 before the pandemic, they easily would of had about £1,200 a day as my estimate.
The X1 was withdrawn as it was only turning marginal profits in one direction at peak times only (towards Liverpool in the morning, towards Runcorn in the evening). It wasn’t a profitable route by any stretch of the imagination.
You could earn a few £’s running 50 passengers into Liverpool but that’s no good if you’re running the opposite direction with a single figure loading eating into the profitability.
RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising - North West Bus Spotter - 24/07/2023 18:15
(24/07/2023 16:35)Raawwwrrr! Wrote: The X1 was withdrawn as it was only turning marginal profits in one direction at peak times only (towards Liverpool in the morning, towards Runcorn in the evening). It wasn’t a profitable route by any stretch of the imagination.While you do have a valid point, rush hour had a big impact as passengers wanted to get into Liverpool AND get back to Runcorn meaning the most revenue was made during rush hour but another thing is that I think Arriva passing the route to MP Travel was a bad idea, Arriva seemed fine running it especially with the fact people would want to get Arriva Buses because of their cheap fares at the time, I think an Adult Day Saver was £4.20 at the time while MP Travel's Day Saver would set you back £5.50 and you could only use it on that route because it was the only one they had at the time.
You could earn a few £’s running 50 passengers into Liverpool but that’s no good if you’re running the opposite direction with a single figure loading eating into the profitability.
RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising - Valandil - 25/07/2023 00:16
(24/07/2023 18:15)North West Bus Spotter Wrote: While you do have a valid point, rush hour had a big impact as passengers wanted to get into Liverpool AND get back to Runcorn meaning the most revenue was made during rush hour but another thing is that I think Arriva passing the route to MP Travel was a bad idea, Arriva seemed fine running it especially with the fact people would want to get Arriva Buses because of their cheap fares at the time, I think an Adult Day Saver was £4.20 at the time while MP Travel's Day Saver would set you back £5.50 and you could only use it on that route because it was the only one they had at the time.
While we're on the subject, X1 is to my mind exactly the kind of route where just a little funding can improve the lives of so many people.
Has anyone seen how long it takes to get from places in Runcorn like Murdishaw into Liverpool now by bus, especially compared with by car? It's obscene.
Having a depot for the X1 at the Runcorn end of the route minimises dead mileage and/or carrying fresh air - vehicles depart Runcorn in the morning peak towards Liverpool and return from Liverpool to Runcorn in the afternoon peak.
Even if you have just 2 vehicles with arrivals into Liverpool at say 07:40 and 08:40 for workers (coordinate with the most common local shift patterns), then those vehicles run back to Runcorn, dead if necessary, and provide fast runs to Liverpool One for shoppers, departing around 08:40 and 09:40 (that one especially for pass holders). Add a 10:40 departure using the first vehicle if deemed viable.
It can drop by the Liverpool airport stop on the way, and even brand it as a fast way to the airport, fast way to employment opportunities, fast way to shop at Liverpool One, etc. Journey times massively shorter than the 79C and 82A which go all through Widnes etc.
Split the shift and give the driver time off in Liverpool or even work other routes with a gap for lunch break, according to what is most viable, then repeat the same in the opposite direction in the afternoon, e.g. departures from Liverpool at around 14:20, 15:20, 16:20, 17:20 (and 18:20 if viable).
RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising - childwallblues - 25/07/2023 05:44
(25/07/2023 00:16)Valandil Wrote: While we're on the subject, X1 is to my mind exactly the kind of route where just a little funding can improve the lives of so many people.I can vouch for the Murdishaw to Liverpool route. I boarded a 79C last Thursday at 1443 at Runcorn High Street on Gas Bus 5017 and alighted at Childwall Fiveways 55 minutes later. In that time we gone around Widnes Town Centre and the Hough Green Estate. We left Runcorn with nine passengers and by the time we picked up in Widnes we were full and standing. However most passengers alighted in the Hough Green area and left seven of us through to Netherley were we started to pick up again. This route is more popular than the more frequent double deck 79 as it goes past the new Royal Hospital and to Queen Square Bus Station which the 79 does not. It should in my opinion be split and run as Murdishaw -Hough Green and Hough Green-Liverpool.
Has anyone seen how long it takes to get from places in Runcorn like Murdishaw into Liverpool now by bus, especially compared with by car? It's obscene.
Arriva's depot for the X1 is at the Runcorn end of the route, which is great.
So there is no need to run almost empty in the opposite direction during the peaks.
Even if you have just 2 vehicles with arrivals into Liverpool at say 07:40 and 08:40 for workers, then those vehicles run dead back to Runcorn and provide fast runs to Liverpool One for shoppers, departing around 08:40 and 09:40 (that one especially for pass holders). Add a 10:40 departure using the first vehicle if deemed viable.
It can drop by the Liverpool airport stop on the way, and even brand it as a fast way to the airport, fast way to employment opportunities, fast way to shop at Liverpool One, etc. Journey times massively shorter than the 79C and 82A which go all through Widnes etc.
Split the shift and give the driver time off in Liverpool, keep working the X1 in the most viable direction only with a time off gap in the timetable for lunch, or even work other routes for a couple of hours, then repeat the same in the opposite direction in the afternoon, e.g. departures from Liverpool at around 14:20, 15:20, 16:20, 17:20. Add 18:20 if viable.
RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising - St Helens Rider - 25/07/2023 05:48
Limited Stop/Express routes are what the region is desperately short of. I have recently travelled on routes which one would think would be fast but aren't (these being the X1 Liverpool - Chester, X2 Liverpool - Preston and 500 Liverpool - Airport) and none of these routes seem to be any quicker than other routes on their respective corridors.