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RE: Route History - St Helens Rider - 19/01/2013 10:32
The 329 prior to dereg ran Warrington - St Helens - Rainford and was a joint service between Ribble and MPTE (unsure if Warrington Borough were part of it as well).
Also shows how the the 320 has been running. The service last ran through to Liverpool in 1995 after the agreement between MTL and GM Buses not to tread on each other's toes quite so much.
RE: Route History - Bevan Price - 20/01/2013 20:42
St. Helens Corporation, 1932 - 1934.
I don't have any complete timetables, just a few "alterations" notices. One feature that looks strange to modern eyes, is that some services were less frequent on Tuesdays to Thursdays than they were on Mondays & Fridays. Also, Sunday services could be quite frequent, although some of them only started in the late morning or early afternoon. Early morning services (before 09:00) could also be infrequent. I can only speculate on the reasons, but it could be related to the financial depression that lasted for much of the 1930s - high unemployment, not much money for shopping or evening entertainment, for example. Thursday was "early closing day" for St. Helens shops, but maybe some people saved money by shopping locally rather than go to the town centre.
No route numbers are shown on the early notices.
1. "Commencing on Wednesday 4th May 1932, the buses running between St. Helens and Burtonwood on the Sutton route will cease to run via Broad Lane Corner, and will run via Rosehill instead." St. Helens was the sole operator at that time.
St. Helens departures: (Mon. - Thurs.) 13:45, 17:45, 22:00
(FSSuO): Every 2 hours, 12:55 to 22:55.
There was also a service to Earlestown via Sutton, Bold Colliery & Collins Green:
St, Helens dep. (FSSu) 13:45 and hourly to 21:45.
Plus (MTuWThO) some short workings to Bold Colliery at 12:30, 15:45, 18:30 & 19:45.
Fare, St. Helens to Earlestown was 7d. (almost 3p), or one shilling (5p) return.
The absence of morning services is a mystery to me, but maybe LUT or some other operator also ran services not mentioned in St. Helens Corporation publicity.
2. By now joint with LUT. "Commencing on Monday, May 1st 1933, the service hitherto operated between St. Helens (Victoria Square) and Earlestown via Sutton will be withdrawn and the following service via Parr will be operated in its place". The route was basically the same as the current 329 as far as Broad Lane Corner, then via Collins Green, Penkford Lane, Common Road, Crow Lane & Market St.
St. Helens depart every 2 hours from 09:00(SuX) or 13:00(Su) until 21:00,
but with additional departures on (FSSuO) at 15:10, 17:10, 19:10, 21:10 and 22:40.
(Friday is Earlestown Market Day)
And also a FSSuO service between Burtonwood & Earlestown, running every 30 mins from 13:45 until 22:45, with connections to/from St.Helens via the Rosehill route (above)
The nearest current equivalent route is the 141.
3. "Motor omnibus service, Sutton Manor & Sutton Leach routes, revised timetable 4th May 1932" :
St. Helens (Market St.) departures to Sutton Manor (Forest Road).
Weekdays: 06:00, 07:00, 07:10, 08:15, 08:35, then mostly :
(MFO) Every 20 mins until 13:20, every 10 mins until 21:30 , then every 15 mins until 23:30
(TuWThO) Every 40 mins until 12:00, then every 20 mins.
(SO): Same as MFO until 17:00, then every 8 mins until 23:16
(SuO) 10:30, 11:10, 12:05, 13:05, 13:40 then every 20 mins until 23:00.
Certain buses ran via Sutton Leach to Gorsey Lane, rather than to Sutton Manor. (Generally one morning bus, then every 2 hours after 14:00)
RE: Route History - Bevan Price - 21/01/2013 19:36
Back to Warrington - Southport, this time "Revised Service commencing Saturday 24th June 1933", jointly operated by Ribble, St. Helens Corportation and LUT. Route numbers 22, 23 and 23a, but there was nothing in this timetable to identify which routes they followed.
The basic service can be summarised:
Warrington to Southport every 2 hours (hourly on Saturdays + Su afternoons, 08:20 to 20:20), plus a 21:20 (SSuO) to Ormskirk.
St. Helens to Southport (including Warrington journeys) - hourly.
These mostly ran alternately via Barrow Nook or via Bickerstaffe Lane Ends.
Only single deckers could be used, due to the low bridge near Rainford (Wheatsheaf) - the Rainford By-Pass was not opened until the late 1940s or early 1950s.
Plus:
St. Helens to Rainford (Wheatsheaf). Hourly, SSuO, 12:15 until 22:15.
St. Helens - Ormskirk. Hourly, SO, 14:29 to 19:29, then 20:40, 21:29, 22:40(NSu)
Plus a handful of early morning short workings between St. Helens & Rainford.
Similar frequencies applied in the opposite direction. First departurs from Southport were 09:18 (NSu) or 11:18; last departures were 21:35 to Warrington and 22:28 to St. Helens.
The route between Warrington & Burtonwood differed from the current 329 route; I think it used a road that was closed in the early 1950s when Burtonwood Airport was extended; also, the bridge over the railway near Winwick Junction was only built in the 1950s.
RE: Route History - Bevan Price - 21/01/2013 20:06
St. Helens Corporation - Rainhill & Prescot routes.
"Commencing on Wednesday 4th July 1934, with the introduction of trolley buses on the St. Helens, Rainhill & Prescot route, the following timetable will be put into operation for the tramcar service via Eccleston Park"
Mostly every 10 minutes on Monday to Friday, increasing to every 8 minutes on Saturdays after 15:40. Sunday service started at 09:00, was irregular until 10:30, the every 15 mins until 13:30, after which it was every 10 mins.
The trolley bus service was mostly every 10 mins on weekdays, but supplemented to every 5 mins between St. Helens and Mental Hospital (now known as Nutgrove) - on Fridays & Saturdays only, from 16:15 until 21:25 (FO) or 23:30 (SO)
The Sunday service was irregular from 09:25 until 12;55, then every 10 mins.
Then we get:
"On and after Wednesday 1st April 1936, a new trolley bus service will be put into operation and the present tramcar service discontinued." The routes via Eccleston Park and via Rainhill were linked into circular services (later known as routes 7 and 8) There were only slight changes in frequency at that time, but
"Commencing on Wednesday 13th July 1938, the present timetable will be withdrawn and an increased service substituted as follows:"
Weekday services became mostly every 8 minutes, but increased to every 6 minutes after 16:00 on Fridays, and after12:00 on Saturdays. Most of the short workings to Mental Hospital were withdrawn.
RE: Route History - Bevan Price - 22/01/2013 21:05
St. Helens Corporation - more from the archives and a slight mystery.
"Increased service, commencing Friday 18th May 1934, St. Helens (Ormskirk Street). Newtown And Bleak Hill Smithy." Mostly hourly on weekday mornings, increasing to every 30 mins (MFSO) in the afternoon & evening (but every 20 mins MFO afternoon peak, and SO after 1810); Sunday hourly 12:15 to 18:15, then every 30 mins.
Followed by "On and from Wednesday 29th January 1936, an increased service to & from Eccleston Bleak Hill via Liverpool Road will be put into operation, and will run in conjunction with the services via Cambridge Road to Bleak Hill and Griffin Inn". So, Eccleston Bleak Hill got an hourly service via Liverpool Road and hourly via Cambridge Road (both increasing to every 30 mins FSO in the afternoon & evening), and Griffin Inn had a 30 mins service via Cambridge Road.
The Liverpool Road service ran from Sefton Place (Baldwin St. Co-op Stores), via Ormskirk St., Bridge St., Liverpool Rd., Eccleston St., Knowsley Rd., Holme Rd., Mill Brow & Millbrook Lane. But now the mystery - what was the unspecified route via Cambridge Road ? Fare stages were shown as Fenton St., Devon St., then Dunriding Lane or Ellison Drive, so at a guess I would suggest Ormskirk St., Duke St., Boundary Rd., Horace St., Cambridge Rd., Knowsley Rd., and then as above.
Is there anyone with (very) elderly relatives who might remember when buses ran along Cambridge Road ?
RE: Route History - gka472l - 22/01/2013 21:59
MPTE Liverpool North/South divsion map
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmc1947/sets/72157632585016709/
MPTE 1979 St Helens division map
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmc1947/sets/72157632589350236/
MPTE 1981 Wirral division map
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmc1947/sets/72157632589353976/
Liverpool Corporation 1960's route map
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmc1947/sets/72157632589358124/
RE: Route History - childwallblues - 23/01/2013 09:06
(12/10/2012 15:35)St Helens Rider Wrote: The 39 and 320 were jointly GMPTE/MPTE and mostly took the same route as the 10's before turning at Holt Road and running down Brownlow Hill.Not all correct. The 39/317/320 used to turn from Kensington into Jubilee Drive and then continuing along Overton Street, Oxford Street and Mount Pleasant into the city. Diversion along Holt Road/Edge Lane was as a result of the closure as a through road of Jubilee Drive. Unsure as to the reason for the Brownlow Hill diversion but I believe it was for operational reasons.
RE: Route History - St Helens Rider - 23/01/2013 12:35
(23/01/2013 09:06)childwallblues Wrote:(12/10/2012 15:35)St Helens Rider Wrote: The 39 and 320 were jointly GMPTE/MPTE and mostly took the same route as the 10's before turning at Holt Road and running down Brownlow Hill.Not all correct. The 39/317/320 used to turn from Kensington into Jubilee Drive and then continuing along Overton Street, Oxford Street and Mount Pleasant into the city. Diversion along Holt Road/Edge Lane was as a result of the closure as a through road of Jubilee Drive. Unsure as to the reason for the Brownlow Hill diversion but I believe it was for operational reasons.
Thanks for that CWB. My earliest memories of these routes are via Holt Road.
RE: Route History - Bevan Price - 24/01/2013 20:59
St. Helens Corporation Transport.
Timetable No.1, February 1947.
Trolley Bus Services.
1 St. Helens - Ashton - Atherton.
(Joint with South Lancashire Transport)
2 St. Helens - Ashton in Makerfield.**
3. Eccleston (Ackers Lane) - St. Helens - Haydock (Rams Head)
4. Moss Bank - St. Helens - Parr (Platt St.)
5. Eccleston (Ackers Lane) - St. Helens (Sefton Place)
5A. Eccleston (Ackers Lane) - St. Helens - Parr Library.
6. Dentons Green - St. Helens - St. Helens Junction.
7. St. Helens - Rainhill - Prescot - St. Helens.
8. St. Helens - Prescot - Rainhill - St. Helens.
9. St. Helens - Toll Bar **
10. St. Helens - Rainhill Mental Hospital **
11. St. Helens - Portico **
(** - Occasional short workings only.)
Motor Bus Services.
Services marked $$ were infrequent / irregular and mostly intended for workpeople.
20. Eccleston (Stuart Rd) - Knowsley Rd. - St. Helens - Sutton Manor (Walkers Lane)
21. Eccleston (Griffin Inn) - Knowsley Rd. - Sutton Manor (Walkers Lane)
22. Eccleston (Broadway) - Dentons Green - Sutton Manor (Walkers Lane)
23. St. Helens (Victoria Square) - Sutton Manor (Forest Road)
24. St. Helens - Sutton Manor Colliery $$
25. St. Helens - Bold (Bridge Rd.) via Peasley Cross, New St. & Sutton Leach.
26. St. Helens - Clock Face (Gorsey Lane) via Gaskell St., Sutton Oak & Gerards Lane.
27. St. Helens - Clock Face (Crawford St.) via Peasley Cross & New St.
28. St. Helens - Clock Face Colliery via Marshalls Cross $$
29. Finger Post - Clock Face Colliery via Gaskell St., St. Helens Junction. $$
30. Finger Post - Sutton Manor Colliery via Gaskell St., St. Helens Junction $$
31. St. Helens - Sutton Leach (Research Factory) via Marshalls Cross $$
35. St. Helens (Victoria Sq.) - Widnes (Town Hall) via Sutton Leach & Sutton Manor.
(Joint with Widnes Corporation)
36. St. Helens - Widnes (Derby Rd.) via Marshalls cross, Clock Face Bridge. $$
37. St. Helens - Widnes (Derby Rd.) via Marshalls Cross & Bold Heath $$
39. Manchester - Leigh - St. Helens - Liverpool (Mount Pleasant)
(Joint with LUT, Leigh, Salford)
40. St. Helens - Warrington (Arpley Station) via Marshalls Cross & Bold Heath. $$
(Joint with LUT)
41. St. Helens - Warrington (Arpley Station) via St. Helens Junction, Clock Face, Burtonwood $$
42. St. Helens - Warrington (South Avenue) via Fleet Lane, Burtonwood & Sankey $$
43. St. Helens - Sankey (B.R.D.) via Fleet Lane, Burtonwood $$
44. St. Helens - Sankey (Tinkers Hall) via Fleet Lane, Burtonwood $$
45, St. Helens - Sankey (B.R.D.) via St. Helens Junction, Clock Face, Burtonwood)$$
46. St. Helens - Burtonwood (B.M.E,) via Fleet Lane. $$
(41 to 46 were mainly to serve the USAF/RAF base at Burtonwood)
51. Rainford (Wheatsheaf) - St. Helens Colliery via Canal St. $$
55. St. Helens - Haresfinch - Carr Mill (Cross Roads)
(Joint with Ribble & Wigan, but entirely operated by St. Helens)
65. Burtonwood - Earlestown.
67. St. Helens - Burtonwood - Earlestown.
(Joint with LUT)
72. Toll Bar - Lea Green Colliery $$
73. Sutton Heath (Boars Head) - St. Helens - Clinkham Wood (Windermere Avenue)
74. Lea Green Colliery - St. Helens - Clinkham Wood $$ (both via North Rd., East Lancs Rd.)
75. Far Moor (Grapes Inn) - Billinge - St. Helens Colliery - Lea Green Colliery. $$
76. Billinge (Stork Inn) - St. Helens / Lea Green Colliery via Eltonhead Rd. $$
77. Finger Post - Peasley Cross - Lea Green Colliery via Gaskell St.,Eltonhead Rd $$
79. St. Helens - Lea Green Colliery via Peasley Cross, Eltonhead Rd. $$
89. St. Helens - Huyton - Speke (Hale Rd or Dunlops Factory)
(From 1946 until 1947, alternate weekday journeys ran to Garston instead of Speke, as service 90)
91. St. Helens - Prescot Cable Works via Rainhill. $$
92. St. Helens - Prescot Cable Works via Portico. $$
93. St. Helens - Haresfinch - Dentons Green - Eccleston - Prescot (Hope St.)
94. Dentons Green - Prescot Cable Works $$
95. St. Helens - Portico - Whiston - Cronton Colliery $$
W7. Wigan - St. Helens - Cronton Colliery $$
(Joint with Ribble & Wigan)
96. Sutton Manor - Rainhill - Prescot Cable Works $$
97. St. Helens (Bridge St.) - Grange Park (Penrith Rd.)
98. St. Helens - Peasley Cross - Sherdley Rd. - Grange Park (Penrith Rd.) $$
99. St. Helens - Kings Moss (Colliers Arms) (SSuX)
100. St. Helens - Kings Moss - Rainford - Gillars Grren Lane - Prescot (SSuO)
(100 had been suspended between 1939 and 1946 because of World War 2.)
101. St. Helens - Prescot (Rye Hey Factory) via Portico. $$
102. St. Helens - Prescot (Rye Hey Factory) via Rainhill $$
105. St. Helens - Bold Colliery via Parr $$
106. St. Helens - Clock Face Colliery via Parr, Bold Colliery $$
107. St. Helens - Bold Iron Works via Peasley Cross, St. Helens Junction $$
108. St. Helens - Bold Colliery via Peasley Cross, St. Helens Junction $$
110. St. Helens - Kirkby (Taylor Woodrows) $$
111. St. Helens - Napiers Factory $$
112. St. Helens - Stopgate Lane $$
113. St. Helens - Littlewoods Factory (Walton Hall Ave.) $$
(110 - 113 via Bleak Hill, East Lancs Rd.)
114/115. St. Helens RFC (Knowsley Rd) - LMS Station (114) or Ormskirk St. (115)
(Match days only)
309/319. Warrington - St. Helens - Ormskirk / Southport
(309 via Bickerstaffe Lane Ends, 319 via Barrow Nook, both via Bescar)
329. Warrington - St. Helens - Rainford (Wheatsheaf)
(Joint with Ribble & LUT)
317. St. Helens - Liverpool (Mount Pleasant)
320. Wigan - Ashton - St. Helens - Liverpool
(Joint with Ribble, LUT & Wigan)
342. Billinge - Orrell Station - Wigan
352/362. St. Helens - Billinge - Orrell - Wigan
(352 direct, 362 via Orrell Station)
(Joint with Ribble & Wigan)
RE: Route History - St Helens Rider - 24/01/2013 22:18
I know in the PTE days, the 5D ran Ackers Lane - St Helens - St Helens Junction.
I think the 22 as was known for many years (Eccleston Dodd Avenue - St Helens - Lancots Lane) started sometime in the 50's and gradually extended to Clock Face/Bold over time.
The 97 was later extended to Moss Bank via Cowley Hill (at least that's how the service was prior to dereg).