+- Forum | Merseyside Dennis Dart Website (http://dartslf.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Buses (/forumdisplay.php?fid=1)
+--- Forum: Buses: The Old Days (/forumdisplay.php?fid=5)
+--- Thread: Route History (/showthread.php?tid=402)
RE: Route History - MTL0201 - 20/05/2019 11:52
I remember the Merseyminis, mostly remember the Wallasey routes, 501/502/515, but Liverpool ones were
563 Belle Vale-Halewood
564/565 Belle Vale-Court Hey
566 Belle Vale-Garston
Looking at my bus maps, looks like the 47 started sometime maybe spring 88, & 87 started sometime 1987
What is amusing, as there was already a Merseytravel tendered 109 Stockbridge-Huyton, the Merseytravel tendered 9 was numbered 129
93 which is now 53, started out as Bootle-Buckley Hill[the terminus being the junction near where the 55 turns to serve Netherton Village, & other routes go straight on for Magdelane Square] 93 was via current 53 Bootle-Waterloo then Crosby Road North-Stuart Road-Endbutt Lane-Crosby-The Northern Road-Brownmoor Lane-Chesterfield Road-Thornton.
After a couple of changes the 93 was extended to Pier Head & cut to Crosby & diverted via Bridge Road & Oxford Road[competing with North Western L3], at the same time the 53 ceased being a circle route with the 55, cut to the loop around Thornton Runnells Lane/Lydiate Lane & diverted via the old 93 Brownmoor Lane ecc.
Looking at my old bus maps, Merseytravel actually charged a fee [20p] for each copy, they became free in 89.
RE: Route History - MTL0201 - 20/05/2019 12:57
12/13 must be one of the most stable routes going, original service was
12 Pier Head-Page Moss
12A City Centre-Page Moss
12A diverted via Leyfield Triangle[those who don't know where that is, from West Derby Village, follow the 61 route to Old Swan, after about a mile the road splits & 61 turns right, that's Leyfield Triangle], also had different terminus/start City Centre mostly Sir Thomas Street, moved to Pier Head think early 80s
When residents started moving into Cantril Farm, the 12C Pier Head-Cantril Farm was introduced in the late 60s, first terminating at Waterpark Drive, then extending to Denes Way, when Denes Way was completed
12/12C were the main routes both every 10 minutes, 12A was half hourly
In 84, after an agreement the 12/12A//12C were merged via Stockbridge Lane to form a circular service 12/12A/13/13A, evening journeys on 12A/13A were renumbered 22/23 & diverted via Queens Drive but that arrangement didn't last long
Also in 84, Cantril Farm was renamed Stockbridge Village, but the new name didn't appear on PTE publicity, PTE still called it Cantril Farm, in timetables, blinds, & maps until d-reg.
Not sure when the 12A/13A were withdrawn, they continued a few years after d-reg but were withdrawn by 1990
Early 90s, 12A/13A reappeared this time City Centre-Huyton competing with the Liverbus 212, until Liverbus took over the roure when MTL brought Liverbus
12/13 only thing changed has been the City Centre terminus, after Pier Head bus station Closed, at first Central Bus Station, then Water Street/James Street, with evening & Sunday service going to Liverpool One bus station
RE: Route History - MTL0201 - 20/05/2019 21:54
Back to the 89, the route started in the late 40s, originally proposed as a joint service between St Helens Corporation & Liverpool Corporation, however Crosville objected, as the Speke terminus was in there area, so ended up as a Crosville & St Helens joint service, although Ribble also had a small stake, route had little change until an 89A was introduced diverting to Halewood, not sure when this was withdrawn, Crosville gave up the route when there Liverpool depot moved from Edge Lane to Love Lane, Ribble took over Crosville's share, operating from Wigan depot, however dead milage was saved by interworking with the 352/362/372, so only a couple of last journies ran back dead from Speke/Halewood to Wigan.
Not sure what the changes were after d-reg, but Merseytravel tendered the evening & Sunday service, 189 Woolton-St Helens, whilst Merseybus extended the main 89 & morning tendered 189 to Garston via Liverpool Airport, the Garston extension didn't last long before being partly replaced by the 80A, 89 cut to St Helens-Speke, but Merseytravel journies still operated through for a few years afterwards.
89 was extended, to operate St Helens-Liverpool Airport in 2004, with frequency increase to 20 minutes/30 minutes evening & Sunday with the 189 being withdrawn, that's the way it's stayed since
RE: Route History - Gillmoss 0324 - 21/05/2019 08:24
Thanks for the info on the Mersemini's at Belle Vale and the 11's and 12's from MPTE days too.
When de-regulation came in, the 11's became Merseytravel tenders which Crosville won. IIRC the 111 was still half hourly but only ran to Stockbridge Village, alongside this was a hourly 107 which I certain ran from Pier Head to Whiston via Huyton missing out the Farm and doing a slightly different route in West Derby to the 111. I can't be sure as I never really had any luck catching it but I think it ran from Deysbrook Lane like the 111's then Town Row, Mill Lane and Millbank rather than doing the Alder Road, Queens Drive, Derby Lane/Prescot Road/Green Lane run to Tuebrook the 11/111's did. I forgot about the 109 suppose that was added to cover the route from the Farm to Huyton and just wondering were Crosville on that too back then?
Crosville also ran the 102's and many other Merseytravel contracts in Liverpool after de-reg and added a fair number of ex-MPTE MCW Fleetline's acquired from the Wirral division and still in MPTE livery alongside their NBC kit on these routes too. It was shame never I got the chance to ride the ex-WMPTE VR's they acquired although perhaps this was a warning things were not good with them was the events which (right/wrong) triggered the industrial dispute at Love Lane and resulted in the depot's closure and Crosville pretty much pulling out of Liverpool, including their commercial routes. My general opinion was Crosville over-reached on these contracts and used the industrial dispute as an excuse for pulling out.
Wasn't the rule with de-reg services couldn't be changed until a few months after it came in? Sure this was the reason Merseytravel couldn't re-award the contracts as quickly as they would today. I know after a few weeks of no service on the 111's Merseybus took it on around the end of February '87. The 107 disappeared along with other Crosville operated Merseytravel contracts like the 173 and if they were on the 109's didn't that disappear around this time too? This also perhaps gave Merseytravel to tidy up some of the subsidised services at that time too and like now there's the rule that these shouldn't compete/duplicate commercially operated services too.
Interesting that the 10, 11 and 510's up to the mid-70's terminated at Castle Street before the law courts got built and noticed a few Flickr pics knocking around with them on layover there. Just wondering if there was a reason they didn't go to the Pier Head and was this the reason the 'Z' bays got built mainly for these east Liverpool routes around that time?
Interesting that Ribble ran the 89's for a while too and must have been strange seeing their NBC red vehicles in what you'd consider was a 'Crosville' territory too. Suppose this was mid-80's and did North Western ever had any time on the 89's in the run up to de-reg too as post-86 always thought of this as a Merseybus route, even if other operators have done the Merseytravel run's on the 189's.
RE: Route History - St Helens Rider - 21/05/2019 08:30
As far as I'm aware, North Western haven't had any involvement with the 89 although I think Liverline have run the 189 at one time but I think this was before the North Western takeover.
RE: Route History - Gillmoss 0324 - 21/05/2019 09:27
(21/05/2019 08:30)St Helens Rider Wrote: As far as I'm aware, North Western haven't had any involvement with the 89 although I think Liverline have run the 189 at one time but I think this was before the North Western takeover.
Thanks wasn't sure North Western didn't do a few run's on there before October 86 etc.
Liverline were on the 189's along with the 106's from 92 to around early 93 when they were pretty much an independent. However didn't North Western/Drawlane have some kind of interest in them in the early 90's before they got absorbed into North Western by spring/summer 93?
Can't properly remember if they did but didn't Fareway once do a Boxing Day/New Year's turn on the 189's once around 1992 too? They had their NC/Olympian's on the 106/140's and seems to ring a bell me seeing them running the 189's that day too when I was knocking around Huyton. If so must've been odd seeing them in St Helens and South Liverpool.
I've enjoyed thinking about these old routes some of which I've forgotten too.
RE: Route History - St Helens Rider - 21/05/2019 11:22
The buses around Christmases in the late 80s/early 90s are a subject in themselves as many different operators were in very unchartered territories. Off top of my head, remember CMT in St Helens (well before their stint on the 10's), Liverbus and Blue Triangle to name but a few. Also in early 2000's, Ace Travel running a Metro bus on the 10A (when the route was single deck the rest of the time).
RE: Route History - MTL0201 - 21/05/2019 13:03
Wigan depot transferred to North Western September, 86 a few weeks before d-reg, along with the rest of Ribble's Merseyside & West Lancashire depots
The reason Ribble ran the 89s, Crosville deemed the 89 was too uneconomical to run when they moved from Edge Lane to Love Lane, so transferred there share to Ribble
Indeed after d-reg there was a 3 month setting in period, companies couldn't make changes until 25th January 87 onwards.
The 107 City Centre-Prescot went via West Derby Road-Queens Drive, followed the 111[11 wasn't registered at first] to Page Moss then to Huyton via Kingsway-Huyton town centre-Whiston-Prescot, the 107 Prescot-Huyton was replaced by the Halton 61, when Halton extended the 61 to at first Huyton, then City Centre.
Merseytravel tenders threw up weird numberings at times, as the fares were different[Merseytravel continued with the former PTEs low fares policy on Merseytravel tenders] Merseytravel numbered the buses in the 100-250 series, although there was exceptions, most of the time ment +100 from the normal number, but there was complications.
[there was already a 192 as explained in a different post] so Merseytravel numbered there tendered 92 to 219, again the 9 group of routes, as there was already a 109 Huyton-Pier Head later changed to Huyton-Stockbridge so Merseytravel 9 was numbered 129 with 9D numbered 139, Crosville H series was most affected by this H3 was 143, H6-H8 became 106-108, so tendered journeys for the Merseybus 6 became 116
North Western routes were affected as well, North Western kept the Ribble L series numbers so tendered journey's for L3 became 213, L21 became bizarrely 131[[ i say bizarrely as that ment there was 2, 131s in the City Centre as there was also a Merseytravel tendered 131 from 431, Liverpool-New Brighton] L81 became 151.
Merseytravel started tendering some of the 5xx series Merseymini routes, Merseytravel numbered them in the 4xx series, which was normally used for rapidride routes.
Actually come to that, my 1988 bus map shows there was a couple of North Western circulars 401/402 & 403/404 these were
401/402 City City Centre-Huyton Circular via whole of the current 8 & 9 to Pilch Lane via Woodfall Heath & Huyton, then Thingwall Hall Drive & Thomas Lane & via the 61 to City Centre
403/403 City Centre-Lodge Lane Circular via 86 to Upper Parliament Street, 26/27 to Kensington & 10 to City Centre
RE: Route History - MTL0201 - 21/05/2019 13:20
Just to add, either April or May 88, Whitechapel & Lord Street became pedestrianised which meant buses were diverted via the current routes, which was weird at first as most buses heading to the Pier Head the usual route from Hood Street Gyrotory was via Whitechapel, Lord Street, James Street, Goree & Water Street, now they went via Crosshall Street, Dale Street & Water Street which is actually a more direct route, outbound as normal to Lord Street, then North John Street, Victoria Street then either Sir Thomas Street Whitechapel or straight down Victoria Street & Whitechapel to Hood Street Gyrotory
The Gyrotory itself was a dreadful place, it was a free for all, passengers regularly having to go into the road to board/alight from buses until Merseytravel started imposing rules & fining drivers if they didn't stop at the right stop, there was also a footbridge across the Gyrotory there, which most never used, one end was next to the Merseytravel shop, but you had to go up/down escalators & the escalators never worked.
RE: Route History - Gillmoss 0324 - 22/05/2019 11:42
The 100-250 Merseytravel numbering scheme that is generally out of favour now was interesting with the ways tendered journey's for the likes of the 9B/C and 9A/D being numbered 129, 139 etc. and the Crosville/Ribble routes having an impact on this too. Interestingly West Midlands had the 4-track number displays so you could/can get route numbers like 255A etc. but MPTE, Crosville, North Westerm and newcomers probably wouldn't have this as an option. Didn't Greater Manchester have the X added at the end on their blinds to short journey routes in three figures too?
Just out of interest what was the other 139 which Merseybus ran for Merseytravel which ran to Old Roan, take it this was a Walton Depot route too?
It's one of those never will know questions but do you reckon the Liverpool area H-routes Crosville operated would have survived if they hadn't pulled the plug on Love Lane? At the time most of these were quite established but limited stoppers compared to the equivalent Merseybus routes so I suppose they might have revised these to be competing versions of the 9's/10's, 6's/40's, 82's/86's etc. which might have improved the profitability of their Liverpool division but at the expense of a bus war with Merseybus and others long run.
Also if Crosville had have remained in Liverpool and PMT's Red Rider expanding far/wide beyond it's Staffordshire region would PMT acquiring a much larger Crosville been possible? A significant Liverpool operation competing with Merseybus would have been a much different proposition to the Wirral division it acquired along with the small-scale operations it developed in the West Midlands, Tameside and Yorkshire.
Perhaps PMT/Red Rider's operation of the evening/Sunday 75/175's was dipping the toe for a possible Liverpool division although if it had happened it would probably not resulted in Liverbus and Liverline developing their operations in East/South Liverpool, Knowsley etc. Didn't do the Red Rider's on the 75's much but did like their Bristol VR's on there especially after the Crosville pull out and a coach seated example I used in '87 was a very interesting example compared to GL's general hardware which itself was quite interesting and varied back then too.