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RE: Route History - Phil - 17/05/2019 07:09
(16/05/2019 22:03)buses7675 Wrote: That sounds roughly right to me Phil, again from memory as I was in Gateacre Comp (started September 1993) when the 47A was running but soon after it became the 174.
First day I ever drove the 174 at HTL was fantastic, however by that point the original Gateacre Comp that I went to had since closed but still, I got to drive the bus I used to get to school!
Excellent!
It’s a shame that there is no longer a direct route to town from Lee Park, Gateacre Park and Gateacre Village. This is something that MTL kept in some way shape or form.
RE: Route History - MTL0201 - 17/05/2019 08:07
My 1990 Liverpool bus map, 47 went via the 86 to PLodge Lane, down Lodge Lane-Ullet Road-Smithdown Road to Penny Lane then 174 to Belle Vale & 79 to Netherley
There was also a 439 City Centre-Lee Park this route was the old pre d-reg 79C, this operated Monday to Saturday
479 City Centre-Hough Green/Garston this was a peak hour rapidride
There was also 87 City Centre-Garston this went via London Road-Crown Street-Grove Street, then 86 to Penny Lane then Heathfield Road-Dunrabin Road-Childwall Fiveways-Woolton Village-Gatacre-Belle Vale-Naylorsfield-Netherley-Halewood-Hunts Cross-Speke Road-Banks Road, this took 90 minutes end to end
I remember around 2000/01 there was a short lived 72 Runcorn-Liverpool which was formed from the 32 Runcorn-Liverpool[32 was the commercial service, renumbered from H25], the 72 went via Woolton & through Lee Park then followed the 79 to City Centre, 72 didn't last long & got renumbered 82A & diverted to the Airport, however the 82A operated in 2 sections, Liverpool-JLA, JLA-Runcorn, before the sections got merged into one route
RE: Route History - Phil - 17/05/2019 09:29
Yes I remember the 87. Monster of a route!
RE: Route History - MTL0201 - 17/05/2019 15:09
When did Merseybus take completely over the 284 route?
The 284, has its origins in the Ribble S1/S2/S3 which was Liverpool-Southport, 1978 the S1/S2/S3 were renumbered S4/S5 & cut to operate Liverpool-Formby/Freshfield, the Freshfield terminus was the roundabout Southport Road/Formby By Pass in 1983 these were renumbered 284/285, at d-reg the 284 was extended to Southport 285 Liverpool-Freshfield, which gave a 30 minute service Liverpool-Freshfield & hourly to Southport, i think the 285 was withdrawn sometime 1988, 284 left stand alone on an hourly frequency. When North Western refused the use of saveaways on there buses, Merseybus added extra journeys & this became a North Western/Merseybus joint service, Merseybus using Skelhorne Street bus station part of the bus & coach station, before it closed, which was weird to see.
Not sure when North Western withdrew from the 284 leaving Merseybus to operate the route alone, not sure when it was extended to Crossens
After d-reg ABC Travel started a 284, later transferred to CMT after CMT brought ABC, main difference to Merseybus/North Western route ABC/CMT route diverted via Birkdale station. Stagecoach withdrew the 284, but whole route is effectively covered by the X2
The 47 has it's origins in the 17 Crossens-Formby, later Banks-Formby, Arriva renumbered the 17 to 47 & extended it to Liverpool, 284 was renumbered 48/48A, 48A extended to operate Southport-Liverpool Airport, although the Airport extension didn't last long, 48A went via the Dock Road 47/48 via Scotland Road, 48/48A were eventually withdrawn & 47 increased to every 20 minutes
RE: Route History - MTL0201 - 19/05/2019 14:05
The X2 Preston-Southport section has it's origins on the Ribble 727 Liverpool-Skipton via Southport-Preston-Clitheroe, early 80s the 727 was renumbered X27 & cut to operate Liverpool-Barnoldswick, with X37 Liverpool-Southport added, X27 i think was withdrawn at d-reg, now operated by North Western X37 stand alone route, then merged late 80s with Crosville X7.
the Preston-Skipton reappeared with new number 280
My memory of Lancashire routes is a bit hazy, but by mid 90s Stagecoach Ribble had an express network
X25/X26 Clitheroe-Manchester via Blackburn-Bolton
X43 Colne-Manchester via Burnley-Rawtenstall, although this was under the Mancunian brand
X51 Southport-Morecambe via Preston-Lancaster
X61 Fleetwood-Manchester via Blackpool-Preston
X62 Preston-Manchester via Chorley
X63 Preston-Burnley via Blackburn
X64 Fleetwood-Bolton via Blackpool-Preston-Chorley-Horwich
Mostly operated by coaches, X43 could see articulated coaches on that route, summer weekends the X61 was often replaced by deckers
X61 was eventually cut Cleveleys-Manchester, then Blackpool-Manchester before being withdrawn
X51 was split at Preston, renumbered X59 & diverted to Blackburn via the X63, X63 was withdrawn, Morecambe-Preston section of the X51 was renumbered X41, reduced to a couple of journeys in the peak hours, X62/X64 were eventually withdrawn.
X43 passed to Burnley & Pendle, Ribble had outstationed buses for the X43 at Burnley & Pendle garage, then Stagecoach brought Burnley & Pendle[at first Pendle councils share, then Burnley councils share, owning Burnley & Pendle outright when Burnley council couldn't afford the planned investment in new fleet Stagecoach had announced] when Stagecoach sold Burnley depot, along with Blackburn depot were they'd been a few strikes over pay, to Blazefield, now part of Transdev group.
X59 was eventually split at Preston, Blackburn-Preston journeys numbered 59, with X59 Southport-Preston.
Mid 00s, X59 was renumbered X2 & extended to Liverpool via the CMT 284, i seem to remember at first shared operation between Gillmoss & Preston depot, before Preston became sole operator.
RE: Route History - Gillmoss 0324 - 20/05/2019 08:01
Good stuff on the 47’s, 87, 173/174’s lads.
I first used the 147 as it was in 1988 and took me all over parts of Gateacre, Allerton and Toxteth I’d (then) never been down before. I also used the 87 around that time too and as said that was monster of a route which took in nearly every bit of Netherley including Naylorsfield and 'Alcatraz' which was being demolished around that time and obscure bits of Halewood, Garston and Woolton too. Suppose the 87 was bits and pieces of the old 66/88’s which disappeared at de-reg and I'm not 100% but didn’t the 87 get withdrawn in 1991 when Merseybus did the route/garage review that July?
The 47 later 47A’s lasted a bit longer until the end of ’93 and got extended out to Garston (garage?) some parts of these routes are covered by today’s 166/266,174,188/288’s etc. Just wondering did the current 166/266 188/288 begin after de-reg or did the 87’s cover them? Don’t really remember them being around until the 47’s and 87’s disappeared from the early 90’s. I know Village Group had a turn on these (maybe a Boxing Day/New Year’s runs) in the early 90’s before they got into commercial services in a big way and the Merseytravel services in/around Belle Vale were always quite interesting for independent operators around there like Village, Blue Triangle, (IIRC) JC Travel, Supertravel, Cumfybus, Eazibus, HTL and Avon Buses all providing services there over the years, with HTL along with Selwyns and Stagecoach around today.
Also does anyone remember the original Merseybus ‘Merseymini’, minibus services that operated out of Belle Vale from 1986 to 1988? I know they were numbered in 5** series and I think were a mix of local services in the Belle Vale/Lee Park/Netherley area’s and others which perhaps like the 87 took on bits and pieces of the old 66/88 on to Halewood/Hunts Cross/Woolton/Garston etc. Just curious what routes (numbers) they were as I can’t exactly remember these and never really got round to using them. IIRC I think there were around 4-5 of these services which interworked with each other at Belle Vale or something like that? I do know they got revised in ’88 to become the 561 when ran on to Old Swan via Bowring Park and Broadgreen and 562 which ran similarly via Bowring Park to Huyton. Not sure when but the 562 only lasted a few months and was withdrawn by late ‘88/early ’89 but the 561 stayed on until the summer of 1992 when the short-lived 67A and then Merseytravel's 165 briefly replaced them before the route from Broadgreen to Old Swan was cut and the 165 became a Belle Vale circular service until it’s fairly recent withdrawal and partial replacement by the current 3’s and 204’s. Also what depot ran the 561’s was it Garston or Edge Lane? Merseymini also had the short lived 510/511 services which were Old Swan – Huyton circular’s introduced in summer 1989 and running IIRC via West Derby, Deysbrook, Knotty Ash, Dovecot etc. I only remember using these from Dovecot to Old Swan via the normal Prescot Road route so can’t exactly remember where they went and were withdrawn by the Autumn too.
Does anyone know if the original 11 service only went to Huyton Village via Kingsway before the mid/late 70’s or did MPTE always run on to Cantril Farm/Stockbridge when the estate there got built? Not sure but didn’t the 11’s get revised in the early 80’s to be extended from Huyton to the Farm via Longview and Page Moss similar to what the current 8/9’s do now then run up Stockbridge Lane and do a circular around Waterpark and Haswell Drive? Was it revised when MPTE did the revisions to the 12’s in 1983-85 which saw them become the 12/13’s circulars we have now and eventually saw the 12/13’s transferred from Green Lane to Gillmoss? I know after de-reg the Merseytravel 111 as it became only went to Stockbridge and didn’t run on to Huyton until Merseybus commercialised it again around 1988/89. Another one of the routes Arriva (right/wrong) has withdrawn in recent years bits and pieces of the 11 still exist in the 102’s (Finch Lane), 258’s and 8/9’s today.
Don’t know much about when Merseybus took control of the 284’s but do remember using one the fairly new Northern Counties Olympian’s from Bootle to Liverpool around early-1990 which went to Sir Thomas Street when Skelhorne Street closed so was probably around this time North Western came off it. It was interesting using a GL Endurance on a 284 one Boxing Day/New Year’s in the late 90’s too. ABC Travel I think originally only did the Sunday Merseytravel run's for a time on the 184/284's in the 90's and didn't really run a competing service until CMT had acquired them as I'm sure they only really went on the route commercially after Arriva's takeover of MTL and branded their Optare Excel's for it around 2000? Could be wrong.
Nice one about the Stagecoach Ribble express services they had in the 90’s too and remember seeing a fair few of these at Chorlton Street around that time too. GMS when Stagecoach had the original Stagecoach Manchester competing on the 192's compete against them competed for a time on these with their Charterplan coaches too. Sadly never really got around to using many of them and they seemed a lot more extensive than what’s around now, but I suppose congestion/reliability, Stagecoach selling parts of their former Ribble operations off, passenger numbers and rail competition have probably killed some of these off a couple of decades on.
It’s been good finding out/remembering stuff about these old routes.
RE: Route History - St Helens Rider - 20/05/2019 08:20
As regards South Liverpool, I remember at de-reg, the 89 was re-routed to terminate at Garston Station and this also included the Sunday 189 as well until sometime in 87/88, so I think the 166/266/188/288 were also part replacements for the route change which I think involved the 89 reverting back to Speke but could be wrong.
RE: Route History - Gillmoss 0324 - 20/05/2019 08:23
(20/05/2019 08:20)St Helens Rider Wrote: As regards South Liverpool, I remember at de-reg, the 89 was re-routed to terminate at Garston Station and this also included the Sunday 189 as well until sometime in 87/88, so I think the 166/266/188/288 were also part replacements for the route change which I think involved the 89 reverting back to Speke but could be wrong.
You're right about the 89's running to Garston Station in the late 80's. Also didn't the evening/Sunday 189's go to Halewood instead of Speke too?
RE: Route History - MTL0201 - 20/05/2019 11:24
The 89 was diverted via Liverpool Airport to Garston station, mostly to give a connection from Merseyrail to the Airport, 89 was cut to Speke, an 80A introduced Airport-City Centre, 1991 merges 80A was extended to Ormskirk via the 321, however wasn't long before 80A was cut back to City Centre, however i think Saturday journeys extended to Ormskirk as 80B.
11 was originally Page Moss-Pier Head, never went through Cantril Farm[now Stockbridge Village], early 70s, the 11 was extended to Huyton Pluckington Farm[Crosville H11 was renumbered to avoid confusion], City Centre terminus was South Castle Street, until got moved to the Pier Head when South Castle Street ceased to be a terminus, [the 10 City Centre-Prescot also terminated at South Castle Street & was moved to Pier Head at the same time]. The 11 think only went through Stockbridge Village after d-reg, did a loop from Page Moss via the Village back to Page Moss then either Huyton or City Centre, in the 91 changes the 11 was merged with the 56 to become Huyton-Netherton via City Centre
RE: Route History - St Helens Rider - 20/05/2019 11:35
The Sunday 189's have had a good mix of operators, certainly from the time they only ran to Woolton. As well as Merseybus, Shearings and Halton have had spells running the service.