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+--- Thread: Thameslink and Great Northern (/showthread.php?tid=803)
RE: Thameslink and Great Northern - 313201 - 24/06/2019 14:37
Its a pity a new traction package hasn't been developed for the 313s.
These units are still younger in age than the slam door stock, some of which were around 50 years old but still remained in traffic until finally withdrawn from service on the lymington branch.
Ok so I was about 2 or 3 years old when they were introduced along with the 314/315/507 & 508 units but there could possibly be potential for a re-traction project like what happened with the 455s which pick up dc power but I think have brushless ac motors.
The same could possibly be done with these units or as has been mentioned, fit diesel powered generators which could generate the 750v for dc and ac powered units ( as in the class 319 to 769 conversion project ).
If I had the technical knowledge I would be working with train companies to put together a new traction package giving them a new lease of life..
RE: Thameslink and Great Northern - SK15 GZG - 24/06/2019 14:41
(24/06/2019 14:37)313201 Wrote: Its a pity a new traction package hasn't been developed for the 313s.
These units are still younger in age than the slam door stock, some of which were around 50 years old but still remained in traffic until finally withdrawn from service on the lymington branch.
Ok so I was about 2 or 3 years old when they were introduced along with the 314/315/507 & 508 units but there could possibly be potential for a re-traction project like what happened with the 455s which pick up dc power but I think have brushless ac motors.
The same could possibly be done with these units or as has been mentioned, fit diesel powered generators which could generate the 750v for dc and ac powered units ( as in the class 319 to 769 conversion project ).
If I had the technical knowledge I would be working with train companies to put together a new traction package giving them a new lease of life..
Where would you use them though?
RE: Thameslink and Great Northern - wirralbus - 24/06/2019 14:43
(24/06/2019 14:37)313201 Wrote: Its a pity a new traction package hasn't been developed for the 313s.
These units are still younger in age than the slam door stock, some of which were around 50 years old but still remained in traffic until finally withdrawn from service on the lymington branch.
Ok so I was about 2 or 3 years old when they were introduced along with the 314/315/507 & 508 units but there could possibly be potential for a re-traction project like what happened with the 455s which pick up dc power but I think have brushless ac motors.
The same could possibly be done with these units or as has been mentioned, fit diesel powered generators which could generate the 750v for dc and ac powered units ( as in the class 319 to 769 conversion project ).
If I had the technical knowledge I would be working with train companies to put together a new traction package giving them a new lease of life..
Yeah problem these days is the re-tractioning of trains costs more to do than buying new off the shelf trains silly as it seems .
Soon there will be units with no homes because of that sort of barmy policy.
RE: Thameslink and Great Northern - 313201 - 24/06/2019 17:29
They could be used on lines that were mentioned in a post at around 00:11 yesterday where the poster menioned lines where 3 car sets coupled to 6s would be better than spending x amount more to extend platforms for 8 car sets.
I would have thought that the cost of in a sense fixing the pep units and giving them a new lease of life would be comparable or maybe a bit less than tearing down old stations and building more up to date stations.
It is also a potential that if there are and traction motors and traction gear available as spares from class 313, 314 & 315 sets that have already met their end which could be used to repair those sets still in traffic and while the removed parts are being cleaned up and repaired the spare parts recovered from the sets could be fitted.
The units could be used as extra stock on wcml routes from liverpool to crewe, liverpool to preston or blackpool or maybe york to scarborough if the wires ever get there.
The other possible use for them could be conversion to network rail departmental units, postal units like the 325s or fit them with batteries do they could work routes like the settle to carlisle line and eliminate air pollution.
I realise my ideas might seem pointless but at least 1 unit ( 313121 ) was put into departmental use but their 25kv capability could allow them to be used as rescue units to recover a failed train ( subject to correct couplings being fitted ) which would also further eliminate air pollution or better still, sell them to indian railways for their suburban network.
I'm not sure what the elecy voltage is on indian railways but with a few alterations to the units power systems its quite likely they would be very useful over there because they would possibly give comfort for passengers who don't enjoy the indian peak hour super dense crushload where 12 car trains which should carry about 1,500 passengers often carry upto 5,000.
I know I've used the potentially annoying term "possibly" quite a lot in my posts but when the topic of potential for re-use crops up unfortunately it does become a habit.
The other use for the 313s could be to put them on the route to brighton to supplement the current southern fleet of 19 or 20 units and give availability for extra peak hour capacity but convert the door controls for guards control.
So even if re-traction of these units is not possible there are several possibilities for re-use.
RE: Thameslink and Great Northern - SK15 GZG - 24/06/2019 18:26
(22/06/2019 23:11)iMarkeh Wrote: Such a shame about the age of the 313s. They would be fantastic for Northern. Based on the fact you can double them for extra capacity and stations should be the right length whereas the 319s would need platform extensions if you wanted to add extra capacity or you have to use diesels under wires which is just daft. What will happen in a few years when demand outweighs capacity again. 3 car trains are the future for Northern I think. Shame there isn't any available for use and those which are available are too old.
I don't think the 313s would be suitable for a single route operated by Northern. The 323s are much newer, have toilets, more seating capacity, superior acceleration (than the 313s and 319s) and a higher maximum speed. I also don't think replacing ex London trains with even older ex London trains would be very popular with passengers either - with or without a refurbishment and new traction package
I like the PEP stock but I don't think that there's any point spending money on them when much newer PRM-compliant EMUs are due to become available to other operators in the near future. If the 319s are replaced during this franchise period then personally I'd be very surprised if it's anything other than Northern retaining their 323s and leasing West Midlands Trains' when they go off lease
RE: Thameslink and Great Northern - iMarkeh - 25/06/2019 01:46
(24/06/2019 18:26)Y474 KNF Wrote: I don't think the 313s would be suitable for a single route operated by Northern. The 323s are much newer, have toilets, more seating capacity, superior acceleration (than the 313s and 319s) and a higher maximum speed. I also don't think replacing ex London trains with even older ex London trains would be very popular with passengers either - with or without a refurbishment and new traction package323s are perfect. I will agree. The issue is that not enough were built. The 323s were fully utilised before all the recent electrification. There is no spare of them for the electrified lines out of Liverpool and those through Bolton. Services via Bolton could be ran as 2x3 car as the platforms can't accommodate 8 car. Liverpool services can't take 8 car but they can all take 6 car. That is what works in their favour.
I like the PEP stock but I don't think that there's any point spending money on them when much newer PRM-compliant EMUs are due to become available to other operators in the near future. If the 319s are replaced during this franchise period then personally I'd be very surprised if it's anything other than Northern retaining their 323s and leasing West Midlands Trains' when they go off lease
Northern don't need 4 car trains as they are too big and you can't couple them. All you are doing on these lines is replacing a 4 car diesel with a 4 car electric. No different to people. At least 313s run as 6s, fit into the platforms, provide extra capacity. The downside is ofcourse the toilets but we are talking about short distance train travel. You don't need toilets really on short hops.
It's highly unlikely for the 313s to move to Northern but it would be a good move if it happened and would help a lot I think with overcrowding.
RE: Thameslink and Great Northern - H101GEV - 25/06/2019 18:59
(25/06/2019 01:46)iMarkeh Wrote: 323s are perfect. I will agree. The issue is that not enough were built. The 323s were fully utilised before all the recent electrification. There is no spare of them for the electrified lines out of Liverpool and those through Bolton. Services via Bolton could be ran as 2x3 car as the platforms can't accommodate 8 car. Liverpool services can't take 8 car but they can all take 6 car. That is what works in their favour.
Unfortunately the Liverpool Lime Street lines cannot accommodate 6 car 323s as they have long 23 metre carriages. Stations on the Chat Moss and Wigan routes which could take trains of that length are definitely in the minority. I'm not sure even the Blackpool North semi-fast, arguably the busiest of all the EMU-operated Lime Street services, could see 6 car 323 operation as some of Huyton's platforms are too short as well.
My own observations of peak time loadings suggest that 6 car 323s are not needed on the Lime Street services anyway. By far the busiest 323-operated service in the Liverpool area I've seen to date is the 1616 CRE - LIV (1723 from MAN) which is very well loaded but copes as a 3 car. Prior to electrification, 2 car DMUs were commonly used on the Wigan stoppers even in peak times.
As for the 313s, I agree they have been outstanding servants on the Great Northern and I'll really miss them but their time has come. The pace at which new EMUs are being ordered is remarkable and I think the so-called 'delay' in Valley Lines electrification was the death knell for any future use. They're better than the 319s by a long way as far as I'm concerned and at least we'll have the Southern ones around for a few more years.
RE: Thameslink and Great Northern - ant17612 - 10/07/2019 18:04
313025 and 313053 are the next pair to head to the scrap man.
RE: Thameslink and Great Northern - ant17612 - 15/07/2019 12:42
313038 and 313040 have made their final journey by rail to Newport today.
RE: Thameslink and Great Northern - ant17612 - 24/07/2019 13:58
313024 and 313056 have made their journey to Newport this week. Only 21 remain now.