Whatever Diamond do your still adding unnecessary pollution from engines that need not occur. All a super depot does is cause smaller depots to close and services that are distance from it to be dropped and late and early journeys to also be dropped, nothing super about that is there?, now in Greater Manchester which is super depot capital of the UK we seem to have super depots clearing up other super depots, and it will get to the state if it carries on where the only depots that exist are those close to Central Manchester, already Bury and Trafford have no depots, Salford had no depot for many years and Tameside had no depot for many years, Wigan's going that way.
What I can't understand is why Rotala seems keen to hand on to depot and pay high lease charges when there is little chance of it ever being used again, simply business sence should say terminate off lease now and cut costs. If a depot's needed again then no doub't another car workshop somewhere else could be picked up and leased, perhaps closer to Wigan where the bulk of everything else is and which offers the ability to take routes from Preston Bus around Skelmersdale and Ormskirk again, and be much nearer, and also offers growth opportunities in Lancashire and Merseyside, and the option to pick up tenders like Garswood to Wigan which seems to frequently change hands more often than changing a set of socks, and other routes in Newton-le-Willows, etc... Thus making it more sustainable in the long term, rather than 4 years further down the line closing the depot again, and also should Greater Manchester and/or Merseyside eventually go for competitive tendering gives a greater scope to go for contracts in those area's.
As for single deckers you have already stated that Rotala is only buying new double-deckers for Bolton so its hardly fixing the issues of the Volvo B7RLE's on lease, unless what Rotala is intending to do is replace saloons on Bolton/Bury town services and the 582 with deckers or minibuses? Granted the 582 needs deckers but can't see town routes in Bolton crying out for them, also I remember being told that there is a low bridge issue on one particular town route in Bolton and others will tell me which it is, that would be unsuitable for deckers in anycase?
(16/07/2019 11:14)gilesbus1 Wrote: [ -> ]Whatever Diamond do your still adding unnecessary pollution from engines that need not occur. All a super depot does is cause smaller depots to close and services that are distance from it to be dropped and late and early journeys to also be dropped, nothing super about that is there?, now in Greater Manchester which is super depot capital of the UK we seem to have super depots clearing up other super depots, and it will get to the state if it carries on where the only depots that exist are those close to Central Manchester, already Bury and Trafford have no depots, Salford had no depot for many years and Tameside had no depot for many years, Wigan's going that way.
What I can't understand is why Rotala seems keen to hand on to depot and pay high lease charges when there is little chance of it ever being used again, simply business sence should say terminate off lease now and cut costs. If a depot's needed again then no doub't another car workshop somewhere else could be picked up and leased, perhaps closer to Wigan where the bulk of everything else is and which offers the ability to take routes from Preston Bus around Skelmersdale and Ormskirk again, and be much nearer, and also offers growth opportunities in Lancashire and Merseyside, and the option to pick up tenders like Garswood to Wigan which seems to frequently change hands more often than changing a set of socks, and other routes in Newton-le-Willows, etc... Thus making it more sustainable in the long term, rather than 4 years further down the line closing the depot again, and also should Greater Manchester and/or Merseyside eventually go for competitive tendering gives a greater scope to go for contracts in those area's.
As for single deckers you have already stated that Rotala is only buying new double-deckers for Bolton so its hardly fixing the issues of the Volvo B7RLE's on lease, unless what Rotala is intending to do is replace saloons on Bolton/Bury town services and the 582 with deckers or minibuses? Granted the 582 needs deckers but can't see town routes in Bolton crying out for them, also I remember being told that there is a low bridge issue on one particular town route in Bolton and others will tell me which it is, that would be unsuitable for deckers in anycase?
Completely disagree with your comment highlighted, for all the reasons previously stated. There will be fewer buses at Bolton than at present, not more! Only a small portion will operate routes any different to what they do now. With some based at the opposite end of the route.
Late & early journeys are dropped because no one uses them & they are not viable, operators aren't a charity, it's a commercial business that needs to make money or at the very least break even. Even TfGM are dropping journeys on tendered routes to save money, fact of life currently. A super depot cut costs for the operator having one large depot instead of 2 or 3 small depots, staffing levels can also be rationalized. In times of increasing costs, falling passenger numbers / government cuts and falling profit margins, that's what needs to happen, accept it. Most big cities have a fewer number of super depots, very few have small local depots, as they're too expensive to keep running. EYMS is a good example, looks at the number of small depots that were closed prior to sale to Go-Ahead.
You don't know what the lease agreement / clauses are regarding Atherton, nor Rotala's future plans / requirement, just guessing.
No, I've previously said that Rotala are drafting in some of their own buses to make up the numbers comprising 08/58 plate B7RLE/Wright, some Euro 6 single deckers from within Rotala group & potentially a quantity of Euro 6 single deckers acquired externally (used). You are getting a little ahead of yourself as regard new buses, Rotala will not be replacing the whole 125 leased buses within the first few months, they are leasing from First for up to 2 years, only part of the replacement order has been decided, even Rotala don't what they're ordering for the remainder yet!
I was in diamond buses Atherton depot today I could of made enquiries and answered all the questions but I'll be going there in a weeks time again I'll try find out more info ..
(16/07/2019 16:47)Winston Wrote: [ -> ]Completely disagree with your comment highlighted, for all the reasons previously stated. There will be fewer buses at Bolton than at present, not more! Only a small portion will operate routes any different to what they do now. With some based at the opposite end of the route.
Late & early journeys are dropped because no one uses them & they are not viable, operators aren't a charity, it's a commercial business that needs to make money or at the very least break even. Even TfGM are dropping journeys on tendered routes to save money, fact of life currently. A super depot cut costs for the operator having one large depot instead of 2 or 3 small depots, staffing levels can also be rationalized. In times of increasing costs, falling passenger numbers / government cuts and falling profit margins, that's what needs to happen, accept it. Most big cities have a fewer number of super depots, very few have small local depots, as they're too expensive to keep running. EYMS is a good example, looks at the number of small depots that were closed prior to sale to Go-Ahead.
You don't know what the lease agreement / clauses are regarding Atherton, nor Rotala's future plans / requirement, just guessing.
No, I've previously said that Rotala are drafting in some of their own buses to make up the numbers comprising 08/58 plate B7RLE/Wright, some Euro 6 single deckers from within Rotala group & potentially a quantity of Euro 6 single deckers acquired externally (used). You are getting a little ahead of yourself as regard new buses, Rotala will not be replacing the whole 125 leased buses within the first few months, they are leasing from First for up to 2 years, only part of the replacement order has been decided, even Rotala don't what they're ordering for the remainder yet!
Well lets see shall we, the depots are completely at the wrong end of the route, depots at the Manchester end are silly because that is the larger town/city that is were people are travelling from not to at night, the same with the Trafford Centre so there starts a decline, who is going to travel on a point less journey from Leigh to the Trafford Centre that Diamond have made totally piintless by removing the return jsut so the bus can be garaged at Eccles?, so the next journey before gets withdrawn then the next and the next and so it goes till there is nothing left. And don't tell me I am wrong I've seen it all before when the previous Atherton closed, when Swinton closed etc, there is only two routes left from the previous Atherton at Bolton and one of those was from Bolton to Manchester, and one left at Wigan so don't tell it doesn't lead to cuts because it does. None of those routes have been replaced by FirstGroup just gradually dropped over the years, now considering Bolton took 70% of Atherton's fleet and Wigan 20% its a prity poor retention rate. Yet car usership in the same period locally has gone up by 30%, hardly surprising is it? Now how is that good for local people?
What ever the lease is at Atherton is Rotala's problem not mine, and I have suggested alternatives, but simply even if Rotala do get Vantage you have admitted it has no future so why not just terminate the lease and walk away rather than leaving a building to be vandalised?
Super depots are an excuse just to cut services and take the industry into a decline, cutting costs makes things worse not better and saves no services what so ever just depletes them. I note Liverpool has no Superdepots yet there services are pritty much left alone and are growing, Brighton as well. Show me one example were a Super Depot has improved service? One example were a Super Depot has not declined traffic since it opened?
Stagecoach also has only about two super depots in its entire portfolio and both of those are in Manchester, yet service elsewhere isn't declining and the small depots work perfectly adequately, and there bus company profits are growing were First that like Super Depots are in terminal decline so your theory on Super Depots is absolute rubbish. Small is beautiful, big is bad.
Where also did I state anything on Rotala's future plans thats all you saying what they will do? But as you've now admitted they intend to cut services. Hence the drop in vehicles by about 100, its not just down to Vantage, as you claim its down to cutting services and wholesale service cuts that Rotala are probably intending to bring in through the back door in September, in order to recover the costs its paid out on it. Otherwise you explain why there are 100 vehicles fewer within the combined business when there were few spares anyway at either Bolton (First) or Atherton (Rotala)?
And Rotala is hardly a company to write home about is it, when it has the worse passenger satisfaction in the whole Country in Redditch?
GONE ARE THE DAYS WHEN GREATER MANCHESTER TRANSPORT AND GM BUSES WAS THE PROPER BUS COMPANY ALL ORGANISED I EVEN REMEMBER THE PASTEY FACED INSPECTOR THAT THE KIDS HATED HE WORE A BROWN UNIFORM AND CAP...it should still be that now.. never privatised
My opinion guys
Got to consider they are buying this depot through a bank loan which as interest on top and I'm guessing it's not just 1 or 2 million they have borrowed so longer it takes to pay back then more money it costs them.
So this is extra money they have to pay out as well as upping drivers wages and then things will have to be discussed with the union which im not sure if rotala existing depots have unions in them.
People yearning for the “GOOD OLE DAYS WHEN EVERYTHING WAS BROWN AND WE DRANK FROM THE HOSE” is part of the reason this country is in the mess it is, certainly the last three years of it.
(16/07/2019 20:24)johnluke Wrote: [ -> ]GONE ARE THE DAYS WHEN GREATER MANCHESTER TRANSPORT AND GM BUSES WAS THE PROPER BUS COMPANY ALL ORGANISED I EVEN REMEMBER THE PASTEY FACED INSPECTOR THAT THE KIDS HATED HE WORE A BROWN UNIFORM AND CAP...it should still be that now.. never privatised
My opinion guys
I'm starting to agree more and more each day, what a disaster its just Fat Cats, Governments of other European Countries and various Banks etc just out to line there own pockets at the expense of the passenger. Not so wonder many of them are performing poorly, and they will continue to do so when they put themselves and there greed before customers. Yet car use has gone up massively since deregulation - I wonder why? Is it down to me (no) Is it down to greedy selfish Bus Tycoons, there bankers and there managers (Yes). They can't even see that they are on a self destruct path there that blind to making money out of greed.
Is it surprising that Lothian Buses hasn't closed a depot since the early 1970's yet all these private tycoons have? I rest my case.
(16/07/2019 20:43)motormayhem1 Wrote: [ -> ]Got to consider they are buying this depot through a bank loan which as interest on top and I'm guessing it's not just 1 or 2 million they have borrowed so longer it takes to pay back then more money it costs them.
So this is extra money they have to pay out as well as upping drivers wages and then things will have to be discussed with the union which im not sure if rotala existing depots have unions in them.
Existing depots won't yet have unions as they evolved either out of coach operations (Eccles/Atherton) or new start opps. (Atherton), Bolton does, but effectively Atherton staff who go to Bolton will no doubt be recruited to the Union by members there. The garage cost which I won't but an exact figure on as i've not got it to hand was between £5m and £6m then presume the loan of assets will then be a separate cost (e.g buses being loaned off FirstGroup, thats got to be a fair amount, then buying numbers of new buses in as well, I would say it makes them ripe for takeover themselves by somebody else, when the debt can't be paid off later, me only need to look at FirstGroup to see how its going to play out. That's if it doesn't fall at some stage into receivership especially if they can't turn losses around at Bolton.
Although granted they seem to be able to squeeze a profit out of very little and it has continued to grow, but its not been out of organic growth in existing opps, but by new acquisitions bolted on. The large fleet reduction at Bolton is certainly something that doesn't look good, which appears to have no explanation, for it to only need 125 buses, yet remove Vantage and a few other contracts can't be above 50 at absolute maximum , yet there is 215 currently there, then Rotala are moving part of Atherton in and claiming to be bringing in around 35 vehicles from elsewhere, that makes 200 with Atherton so minus 40 that makes in my eyes minus 65 vehicles that's a hell of a lot of service cuts. In effect they could simply close Atherton and give all the staff based there redundancy notices. Or is that whats coming????
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What’s the history to the 575 route, and the current competition between Arriva and Diamond?