How different the maps are from PTE era to Merseytravel era, this an example of PTE era map
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dmc1947/al...2585016709 roads look like they've been drawn on in ink, quite often the old zone ticket boundary, & boundary points imposed over the route numbers, so hard to see the route numbers, Merseytravel maps, straight away from d-reg, wider roads originally in yellow, with bus numbers in red, with road/street names inside, far more user friendly, clear & easy to read, sad thing is, more & more roads are changing colour to white, every time bus map is published.
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Just seen a timetable for sale, the post d-reg Merseybus the Wirral renumbering scheme took place mid January 89[i thought it was a couple of months later], this is were the 3/3A was formed from the 33 & 36 & so on, the original 10 was withdrawn, this went straight down Cleveland Street, 10A became all day service now the 410
Come to think of it, i find it quite weird Merseyside PTE kept with the local number scheme, when PTEs elsewhere re numbered everything, so you had 5xx, 6xx routes.
I think the Kirkby 15* routes were a sort of attempt at having separate route numbers for the MPTE area's but yes unlike Greater Manchester or West Midlands you didn't really get say routes in the four Mersey area's numbered like 1**, 2**, 3** etc. Saying that you could say some of the Ribble routes in the 3** series were similar to this and separate from the general municipal/MPTE series. It's interesting though that the 19's weren't incorporated into that 15* series when the old 15 route did and became the 155 etc.
Don't know much about the other PTE's but didn't West Yorkshire do something similar with routes in the Bradford, Halifax, Huddersfield area's too?
MTL/Arriva's renumbering's have seen a fair few Wirral services become 4** routes since the 1990's and Arriva's Southport and St Helens changes have seen pretty much no duplication with the Liverpool route numbers which have been in use for many years.
It's interesting that over the last decade or so both Nat Ex West Midlands and mainly Stagecoach Manchester (Wigan) have abandoned legacy route numbers from the PTE era and now have different routes with duplicate numbers in different parts of their operating territories.
West Yorkshire PTE did do the same renumbering scheme as Manchester
Leeds 1 to 99
Wakefield 1xx
Dewsbury 2xx
Huddersfield 3xx
Halifax 5xx
Bradford 6xx
Some Wakefield area routes are also 4xx
That hasn't changed
Tyne & Wear PTE was more complex, although local routes were
Newcastle & Gateshead were 1 to 96, night buses 97-100
Sunderland was 1xx
South Shields was 5xx
I say more complex, as you then add Northern General & United Auto routes to/from the PTE area from Northumberland & County Durham they ranged up to 7XX
Found a First Chester & Wirral overground magazine & timetable from summer 2003, this is when the Moreton RedRider depot was closed, routes then were
1 Chester-Liverpool
2 Ellesmere Port-Chester, peak hours extending to/from Little Sutton & Neston
3 Chester-Rivacre
4 Little Sutton-Stanney Grange/Chester
7 Ellesmere Port-Kendal Drive
10 Chester-Connah's Quay
11 Chester-Holywell
12/12A Chester-Connah's Quay
16 Chester-Salteny
17 Leasowe-Clatterbridge
22/22A Chester-West Kirby
36 Ellesmere Port-Runcorn
38 West Kirby-Poulton Lancelyn
39 West Kirby-Port Sunlight
41/42 Mill Park-Woodchurch
51 Chester-Plas Newton
53 Chester-Kingsway
71/72 Heswall-Woodside/Liverpool
75 Heswall Lower Village-Irby
92 Birkenhead-Beechwood
2 was an hourly frequency via the old C2 Ellesmere Port-Chester, peak hour one journey Ellesmere Port-Neston, returning to Chester, in the morning peak, evening peak one journey Chester-Little Sutton
4 was 20 minutes Little Sutton-Stanney Grange, extending hourly to Chester via Stoak
10/11/12/12A were part of the Flintshire County Council Lynx branding scheme, think joint services with Arriva
17 was renumbered from 117, forgot about the Leasowe circle route
22/22A, every 30 minutes West Kirby-Heswall, then hourly Neston via Parkgate, then 2 hourly 22 via Ness & Burton, 22A via Hinderton & Willaston, both routes served Mollington Village
38/39 every 15 minutes West Kirby-Bebington Station, then 30 minutes to Poulton Lancelyn[38] Port Sunlight[39]
51 was every 9 minutes in the peak, 11 minutes off peak
71/72 only a couple of peak hour journeys extended to Liverpool, mostly Woodside-Heswall
(14/06/2019 15:18)MTL0201 Wrote: [ -> ]West Yorkshire PTE did do the same renumbering scheme as Manchester
Leeds 1 to 99
Wakefield 1xx
Dewsbury 2xx
Huddersfield 3xx
Halifax 5xx
Bradford 6xx
Some Wakefield area routes are also 4xx
That hasn't changed
Tyne & Wear PTE was more complex, although local routes were
Newcastle & Gateshead were 1 to 96, night buses 97-100
Sunderland was 1xx
South Shields was 5xx
I say more complex, as you then add Northern General & United Auto routes to/from the PTE area from Northumberland & County Durham they ranged up to 7XX
Interesting would explain why some Go North East's Durham/Middlesbrough services like the 21, 22, X10's etc. were still up to 7XX when I first used them about 14-15 years ago.
I suppose if MPTE had have looked at doing they could've had separate number scheme's for various area's of the four Merseyside council area's. Something like Southport, Formby and Maghull/Literland/Bootle in Sefton, Halewood, Huyton and Kirkby in Knowsley and Birkenhead, Wallasey and other parts of the Wirral. Not intended this way but perhaps Fareway and Liverbus's services could have been a indication of doing this as neither operator ran the same routes and numbers as the competing Merseybus services around that time.
(18/06/2019 07:54)Gillmoss 0324 Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting would explain why some Go North East's Durham/Middlesbrough services like the 21, 22, X10's etc. were still up to 7XX when I first used them about 14-15 years ago.
I suppose if MPTE had have looked at doing they could've had separate number scheme's for various area's of the four Merseyside council area's. Something like Southport, Formby and Maghull/Literland/Bootle in Sefton, Halewood, Huyton and Kirkby in Knowsley and Birkenhead, Wallasey and other parts of the Wirral. Not intended this way but perhaps Fareway and Liverbus's services could have been a indication of doing this as neither operator ran the same routes and numbers as the competing Merseybus services around that time.
Any MPTE renumbering would have been trickier, as you had Ribble & Crosville with there own numbers, as well as rapidride 4xx & limited stop routes 5xx, Ribble routes were either 3xx, or Lxx, 2xx numbers were introduced in the MPTE area in the 70s, although Ribble 2xx was traditionally East Lancashire. Crosville renumbered there entire system in the late 50s routes with prefix letters, Liverpool was H, Wirral F, some routes from Chester being C, then late 70s Crosville routes solely in the Wirral MPTE were renumbered again 72 to 89.
Kirkby had the infamous renumbering scheme in 1980, Kirkby routes renumbered 150 to 159, buses with 4 track number blinds were introduced[look at East Lancs & Willowbrook Atlanteans from 1821 upwards, & some experimental buses], incase PTE introduced something like 157A & so on, but they were rarely used to the full, some short journeys became 14x instead, like 144 Pier Head-Gillmoss
I suppose any scheme could well have been
Liverpool 1 to 99
Wirral 1xx
Southport 2xx
St Helens 6xx
I say St Helens 6xx keeping in with some routes already in 6xx series, mostly operating from GMPTE area under Lancashire United
Come to think of it Wirral didn't have many routes that ended with suffix letters, in the PRE era, i recall 51 group later became 51C/51D/51E,then 70A/71A/72A/80A later when Arrowe Park Hospital was opened you had 71C/72C/72D, there was also 73A/73C, short mostly garage journeys were often numbered E
Couple of questions:
1) Any ideas of when the 79 was extended from Netherley through to Halewood?
2) In June/July 1990, North Western started competing with Merseybus on the 26/27 and 60 routes. Any idea how long these competing routes lasted for?
79 to Halewood was extended about 3 to 4 years ago, mostly as replacements to/from Okell Drive for 74/75/78 as 75 was a circular route with 74