Forum | Merseyside Dennis Dart Website

In the wirral I would do a number of things to change the network. Also a question what would you do to change the network.
I HAVE LISTENED TO FEEDBACK AND THIS IS AN EDITED IDEA!!
I would change these services below:
1/1B Moreton Circulars: Withdrawn replaced by M1 & M2.
1A/1C Moreton circular: Withdrawn.
1/X1 Liverpool - Chester: I would make the frequency back to a combined 15 minute service. I would also change the X1 to return via Rock Ferry By-Pass not serving Birkenhead or New Ferry. I'd also change the terminus is Chester because its really confusing. 1: Will run from Chester Interchange only not Chester Station. X1 will run from Chester Interchange as normal but still serving the Station.
16/16A/17 Moreton - Eastham Ferry: I would make all 16 services via Peter Price Lane with 16A renumbered 16. I'd also have all services serve Poulton Lancelyn & Croft Retail Park.
22 West Kirby - Chester: Services serve Willaston every 2 hours remaining as 22. Services serve Mollington every 2 hours as 23. So basically its Willaston, no Mollington (Vise-versa)
38/38A/38B: I would change the 38 by number one. 38 service to Eastham will be renumbered 38A and no longer serve the Sandbrook Estate. 38 services to Croft Retail Park will remain via Sandbrook. This is too try to stop consistent delays along these roads & also the number of passengers in this area is quiet low. Sunday & evenings 38A services will extended from Eastham to Eastham Ferry not serving Mill Park. Services will not serve Saughall Massie. However on Sunday & evenings services will serve Sandbrook Estate.
41/42 Arrowe Park - Mill Park: I'd have these services extend beyond Mill Park to Cheshire Oaks via Ellesmere Port. But also with that reduce the service to run every 40 minutes each combining to a 20 minute service. Sunday & evening journeys will run every 90 minutes each combining to a 45 minute service.
73 Heswall - Poulton Lancelyn Circular: Extended beyond Bebington no longer serving Poulton Lancelyn to Birkenhead Bus Station (Along the old 77 service).
80/81/82 West Kirby circular: Possible increase to run hourly (80 & 82) & run half-hourly (81).
91/91A Holmlands Estate circular: I'd have 91 withdrawn. 91A will be renumbered 91 & run Monday - Saturday hourly.
106/107 Wallasey Circular: I'd have services extend beyond Liscard to Birkenhead North operating to/from there instead. Also if an increase is possible it would be 60 mins but if not it would be 2 hours each.
174 Heswall circular: Combined with 181.
175 Heswall - Irby Circular: Extend the service from Irby to Thurtaston & then West Kirby. Possible reduction however.
181 Heswall - Arrowe Park: Extended from Heswall via Lower Village to Clatterbridge via Barnston & Brimstage. Possible reduction however.
216/217 Morning circulars: Withdrawn because 418 & 492/495 run along the service.
407 West Kirby - Liverpool: Sunday & evening journeys should be introduced running every 40 minutes.
408/409 Birkenhead - Wallasey: Reinstated but runs every 60 minutes each.
410 New Brighton - Woodside/Clatterbridge: Woodside journeys extended from Birkenhead to Liverpool. Clatterbridge journeys will not serve Woodside at all.
411 New Brighton - Woodside: No ideas.
413/414 Woodside - Seacombe or New Brighton: Both journeys increased to every 20 minutes each combining to a 10 minute service. Probably wont happen because Arriva is currently struggling with staff in Birkenhead depot.
418 New Ferry - Birkenhead: Additional journeys run during the early mornings replacing the 216/217 these services will run as 218 and serve Woodchurch Estate. Rerouted via Prenton Road West then Borough Road no longer serving Storeton Road or Mount Road.
420 West Kirby - Liverpool: Return service departing at 15:30.
423 Seacombe - Liverpool: Due to the 407 Sunday being introduced there is no need to serve Town Meadow. Also a possible reduction.
432/433 New Brighton - Liverpool: No ideas but due to the amount of buses needed for others services both journeys may be reduced to run 30 minutes daily combing to a 15 minute service.
437 West Kirby - Liverpool: No longer serves Greenbank Road due to massive congestion at some times and also reliability issues.(81 & 22 remain via this are). Saturday service may have to be reduced to every 12 minutes.
464 New Ferry - Liverpool: Due to more buses needed the service may be reduced to 40 minutes to use 2 buses an hour on this service.
471/472 Liverpool - Heswall: Arriva's journeys: Frequency and route not changed. Stagecoach services: Reduced to every 40 minutes (Monday - Saturday day) & 60 minutes during the evenings & Sunday. I'd introduce a new 473 service between Liverpool & Heswall via Barnston running 40 minutes (Monday - Saturday day) & 60 minutes during the evenings & Sunday.
487 Liverpool - Neston: Rerouted to serve Clatterbridge Internal Grounds.
492/495 Birkenhead - Noctorum circular: Evenings & Sunday increased to hourly each. All services rerouted to serve Arrowe Park via Upton.
M1/M2 Moreton Circulars: New journeys replacing the current 1/1A/1B/1C services. M1 will run from Leasowe Ross Avenue via Leasowe, Curlew Way, Saughall, Moreton Cross, Leasowe Railway Station & Ross Avenue. M2 will run an opposite direction service. I have no idea for the frequency of the services. But services run Monday - Sunday daytimes with no evenings.
Tell me any ideas that you would do to improve the network in Wirral.
Should I do one for Liverpool?

Moved to off topic:

The main feed is for "Discussion about the bus scene in the North West and Wales." while this is fantasy route changes

My takes on yours:

Moreton Circulars: don’t know why they run in the evenings. Could possibly understand a Sunday daytime service but no evening service. Basically same as you I’d have them start Leasowe (Ross Avenue) and have a ‘M1’ run via Moreton Shore and via normal route to Curlew Way, then return via Leasowe Station. And an ‘M2’ doing the opposite. No need for buses to change number at moreton cross. We already have a number 1 in the Wirral.

16/16A/17: To achieve this (running as circulars via Moreton, one way in another out) you’d need to reduce PVR to keep same frequency. Otherwise buses would not stay at an hourly frequency. By buses going via Spital station omitting Clatterbridge you could cut the PVR down to 4 buses and it would work, albeit tightly.

22: slightly later finish. But confusing only some buses serve Williaston or Mollington (one bus serves both) have them all serve Willaston. Not picking up any passengers running along the Chester High road so don’t see why they need to cut out Willaston.

38: Don’t think Sandbrook passengers would be happy at a reduced frequency. Buses have large turnovers at the Eastham and Bromborough end of the route. I would try and make the evening service more clockface, pretty confusing at the moment. I like the idea of serving Eastham Ferry on a Sunday mind.

41/42: nice idea, can’t see it taking off however.

73: for this id have it after serving Poulton Lancelyn return to Heswall via Clatterbridge and Thornton Hough, competing a full circular. Then a 73A in the opposite direction. Buses serve town lane instead of Teehay Lane.

80/81/82: They’re good routes but infrequent. If funds become available I’d double the frequency. Perhaps 80 could serve Newton Cross Lane and Woodland Road as 138 used to.

91: very confusing having a Saturday route completley difffent to weekday route. Agree with you only issue is Oxton village would then get no service.

106/107: I like this idea. Since they now serve Mount Road the route is complex in along Seabank and the side roads. I’d have buses after serving new Brighton, run via Victoria Road, Hamilton Road and Mount Road then down Mount Pleasant road, cut across Rowson street to access Egerton Road and Grosvenor Road, then follow old route to liscard, so buses don’t basically come back on themselves.



174/175/181: I like your ideas.

I would personally have 181 run to Heswall shore and 175 finish at Heswall Bus Station to interwork with the 174. As currently 1 or 2 181 journeys run to Heswall shore as wel as 175 so would simplify these routes. I’d like the 181 to run via Downham Road and Whitfield Lane and the 175 to run via Quarry Road East and Irby Road, so the routes don’t ‘crisscross’

216/217: don’t see why these run to be fair. I’d not like to see them withdrawn for simple nostalgia however!

407: does a little section of town meadow at the moment, looks odd. Better running via Pasture Road, Maryland Lane and then down Bermuda Road (instead of Millhouse Lane).

Only issue is this would mean buses to Liverpool would run up Bermuda Road rather than down. Perhaps switch the direction of the 423 round town meadow to keep them the same.

I really liked the 408/409 circulars. Reinstate them at an hourly frequency.

Don’t think 418 needs to serve Woodchurch, 41/42 do this well. I think it could be rerouted via Prenton Road West rather than Storeton Road to avoid that nasty hairpin at Prenton Lane. Increased frequency.

423: yeah have 407 run Sundays, 423 cut from town meadow. Simplify it. I agree with this.

464: I’d have 464 run via Mount Road and Church Road, and have 487 run via Borough Road. Stops them ‘crisscrossing’. Also at the moment you can access New Ferry from either side of borough road (towards Birkenhead from 41/42, from Birkenhead via 464)

471/472: only issue is in Barnston nowhere to turn around. I had an idea that a new route, 473, could replace the peak 472 barnstons. It could start from Heswall Bus station and then run via barnston route but then continue on Barnston Road back to Arrowe Park and then as normal to Liverpool.

487: yes serve Clatterbridge internal roads. Also the routes in Neston are incredibly confusing with all the different combinations. Simplify this.

492/495: yeah should serve Arrowe park. As Noctorum doesn’t have a service to Arrowe park. Evening Sunday service should be hourly. Always seemed to have half decent patronage in the past.

(07/04/2023 09:12)T42 PVM Wrote: [ -> ]Moved to off topic:

The main feed is for "Discussion about the bus scene in the North West and Wales." while this is fantasy route changes

Sorry didn't know what to post this on.

(07/04/2023 09:23)mrd97 Wrote: [ -> ]My takes on yours:

Moreton Circulars: don’t know why they run in the evenings. Could possibly understand a Sunday daytime service but no evening service. Basically same as you I’d have them start Leasowe (Ross Avenue) and have a ‘M1’ run via Moreton Shore and via normal route to Curlew Way, then return via Leasowe Station. And an ‘M2’ doing the opposite. No need for buses to change number at moreton cross. We already have a number 1 in the Wirral.

16/16A/17: To achieve this (running as circulars via Moreton, one way in another out) you’d need to reduce PVR to keep same frequency. Otherwise buses would not stay at an hourly frequency. By buses going via Spital station omitting Clatterbridge you could cut the PVR down to 4 buses and it would work, albeit tightly.

22: slightly later finish. But confusing only some buses serve Williaston or Mollington (one bus serves both) have them all serve Willaston. Not picking up any passengers running along the Chester High road so don’t see why they need to cut out Willaston.

38: Don’t think Sandbrook passengers would be happy at a reduced frequency. Buses have large turnovers at the Eastham and Bromborough end of the route. I would try and make the evening service more clockface, pretty confusing at the moment. I like the idea of serving Eastham Ferry on a Sunday mind.

41/42: nice idea, can’t see it taking off however.

73: for this id have it after serving Poulton Lancelyn return to Heswall via Clatterbridge and Thornton Hough, competing a full circular. Then a 73A in the opposite direction. Buses serve town lane instead of Teehay Lane.

80/81/82: They’re good routes but infrequent. If funds become available I’d double the frequency. Perhaps 80 could serve Newton Cross Lane and Woodland Road as 138 used to.

91: very confusing having a Saturday route completley difffent to weekday route. Agree with you only issue is Oxton village would then get no service.

106/107: I like this idea. Since they now serve Mount Road the route is complex in along Seabank and the side roads. I’d have buses after serving new Brighton, run via Victoria Road, Hamilton Road and Mount Road then down Mount Pleasant road, cut across Rowson street to access Egerton Road and Grosvenor Road, then follow old route to liscard, so buses don’t basically come back on themselves.



174/175/181: I like your ideas.

I would personally have 181 run to Heswall shore and 175 finish at Heswall Bus Station to interwork with the 174. As currently 1 or 2 181 journeys run to Heswall shore as wel as 175 so would simplify these routes. I’d like the 181 to run via Downham Road and Whitfield Lane and the 175 to run via Quarry Road East and Irby Road, so the routes don’t ‘crisscross’

216/217: don’t see why these run to be fair. I’d not like to see them withdrawn for simple nostalgia however!

407: does a little section of town meadow at the moment, looks odd. Better running via Pasture Road, Maryland Lane and then down Bermuda Road (instead of Millhouse Lane).

Only issue is this would mean buses to Liverpool would run up Bermuda Road rather than down. Perhaps switch the direction of the 423 round town meadow to keep them the same.

I really liked the 408/409 circulars. Reinstate them at an hourly frequency.

Don’t think 418 needs to serve Woodchurch, 41/42 do this well. I think it could be rerouted via Prenton Road West rather than Storeton Road to avoid that nasty hairpin at Prenton Lane. Increased frequency.

423: yeah have 407 run Sundays, 423 cut from town meadow. Simplify it. I agree with this.

464: I’d have 464 run via Mount Road and Church Road, and have 487 run via Borough Road. Stops them ‘crisscrossing’. Also at the moment you can access New Ferry from either side of borough road (towards Birkenhead from 41/42, from Birkenhead via 464)

471/472: only issue is in Barnston nowhere to turn around. I had an idea that a new route, 473, could replace the peak 472 barnstons. It could start from Heswall Bus station and then run via barnston route but then continue on Barnston Road back to Arrowe Park and then as normal to Liverpool.

487: yes serve Clatterbridge internal roads. Also the routes in Neston are incredibly confusing with all the different combinations. Simplify this.

492/495: yeah should serve Arrowe park. As Noctorum doesn’t have a service to Arrowe park. Evening Sunday service should be hourly. Always seemed to have half decent patronage in the past.

I really like the idea M1/M2. But I was thinking the 418 would serve Woodchurch replacing the 216/217 but they could only serve these areas in early mornings as 218. The reinstation of the 408/409 is a good idea. 464 & 487 would also be good but its probably unnecessary because is only a short walk.
The rerouting of the 38 Eastham journeys would probably improve the services reliability because its continually late around the area. So reducing the frequency would see probably like 1 bus around the area at once stopping blockages to get to bus stops.
Also I forgot there is no way to turn around in Barnston but I had another idea too. The Stagecoach 471 & 472 services could be reduced every 40 minutes. Arriva's 471 & 472 services remain every 20 minutes. New 473 by Stagecoach running from Liverpool to Arrowe Park then operates along Arrowe Park Road, Barnston Road, Telegraph Road to Heswall Bus Station running every 40 minutes combining to a 10 minute service. Then during the evenings & Sundays Arriva's services every 30 mins, Stagecoach's 471 & 472 every hour & Stagecoaches 473 run every hour combining to 15 minutes service.
41 & 42 extension will probably take off (Maybe) because is will link Arrowe Park, Woodchurch, Prenton, Birkenhead, Rock Ferry, New Ferry, Bebington, Bromborough, Eastham to Ellesmere Port & Cheshire Oaks.
22 is too confusing but I have an idea for this. Run services via Willaston every 2 hours as 22. Run services via Mollington every 2 hours as 23. I think to improve the 16 & 17 and keep the PVR to the same frequency and remain via Clatterbridge. Is the 16 & 17 wont service Digg Lane, Town Meadow Lane or Millhouse Lane and have the 407 serve these areas.
Also thanks for the feedback!