Thanks for all this feedback on this as someone who again travelled to both cities I seem to remember it well.
I didn't at the time, travel to Southport so can't speak about what was there.
I think the battle really started a long time before,in 1989 as Alan Johnson was then depot manager at St Helens depot and decided to try to win school contracts in the Lowton, Leigh and Wigan area's indead my local school contract at the time was operated by Merseybus using a variety of fleet from that depot from brand new 1989 NCME bodied Olympians to Leyland National 2's to Alexander AL bodied Atlanteans from both L plate and A plate examples, later the older Atlanteans went and newer vehicles from other depots came in. From that school contracts were eventually lost, so the next move was to go and register the 10 and 510 services from Liverpool to Bolton duplicating over several routes. In turn from that the fact GMPTE had been ordered to sell GM Buses appealed to MTL directors as they wanted to force GM Buses into collapse as there financial position wasn't very secure so they registered Lancashire Travel and then MTL Manchester which Alan Johnson Managed MTL Manchester as he knew Manchester reasonably well. GM Buses doubled the frequency of there 34 service and brought in MCW Metrobuses with Northern Counties bodies from the Manchester garages to Atherton to operate on it in competition.
Then GM Buses North and South were sold to MEBO (Management Employee Buyouts) so cash was available to respond in some way then, so Alan Westwell who was from Liverpool originally managed GMN and bought a collection of former GMPTE standards from Yorkshire Rider which had been sold by GM Buses between 1986 (Fleetlines) and 1992 (Atlanteans), and also several batches of MCW Metrorider Minibuses from Yorkshire Rider, South Wales Transport and Cardiff Bus, some of these were used to strengthen Greater Manchester area services while others were sent onto Merseyside.
MTL bought Bolton Coachways in Bolton out and was able to keep vehicles there from the St Helens fleet besides gaining local Bolton area work.
GM Buses South's response was to open a depot in Birkenhead and introduce the former Birkenhead Corporation livery onto them as Birkenhead & District and bring in all 17 NCME bodied Fleetlines it had that had come from GM Buses as they were in effect none standard in its main fleet. Later on in registered the 26 and 27 Shield Road Circulars using Y and A plate Atlanteans from Princess Road depot on them which would drive over using the M63 (now M60) and M62 to Liverpool.
I think really what was happening is both operators were losing money in there own area's because the incomers were offering lower fares, so a deal was reached were MTL not to lose face was given routes by GMN that linked Merseyside with Wigan area towns that had been operated by Atherton depot and Wigan depot, while MTL closed there operation in Manchester, sold the Bolton operations and selected vehicles to GMN in recompense. GMS closed Birkenhead and district and GMN its Liverpool and Southport opps, GMS stopped operating the 26 and 27. Off course in the longer term later under First Manchester it bacame possible to close Atherton depot as its mileage and vehicle output had reduced somewhat, as the 34 used significant numbers of buses, also MTL was able to reduce its Liverpool fleet and close sub operations like Fareway and the former Liverbus base at Huyton in the years to come.
I doubt anything like this will happen again, because of the state of play proposed at the moment.
(16/02/2019 17:13)gilesbus1 Wrote: [ -> ]MTL was able to reduce its Liverpool fleet and close sub operations like Fareway and the former Liverbus base at Huyton in the years to come.
It was Arriva who closed the Liverbus depot in 2005/6 with services eventually transferring to Green Lane and Speke (192). Arriva also had the largest impact on Liverbus services in their 2000’s route change and renumbering plan.
Does anyone have any network maps from GM buses in Liverpool? Preferably the last map before they ceased trading?
(16/02/2019 17:13)gilesbus1 Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks for all this feedback on this as someone who again travelled to both cities I seem to remember it well.
I didn't at the time, travel to Southport so can't speak about what was there.
I think the battle really started a long time before,in 1989 as Alan Johnson was then depot manager at St Helens depot and decided to try to win school contracts in the Lowton, Leigh and Wigan area's indead my local school contract at the time was operated by Merseybus using a variety of fleet from that depot from brand new 1989 NCME bodied Olympians to Leyland National 2's to Alexander AL bodied Atlanteans from both L plate and A plate examples, later the older Atlanteans went and newer vehicles from other depots came in. From that school contracts were eventually lost, so the next move was to go and register the 10 and 510 services from Liverpool to Bolton duplicating over several routes. In turn from that the fact GMPTE had been ordered to sell GM Buses appealed to MTL directors as they wanted to force GM Buses into collapse as there financial position wasn't very secure so they registered Lancashire Travel and then MTL Manchester which Alan Johnson Managed MTL Manchester as he knew Manchester reasonably well. GM Buses doubled the frequency of there 34 service and brought in MCW Metrobuses with Northern Counties bodies from the Manchester garages to Atherton to operate on it in competition.
Then GM Buses North and South were sold to MEBO (Management Employee Buyouts) so cash was available to respond in some way then, so Alan Westwell who was from Liverpool originally managed GMN and bought a collection of former GMPTE standards from Yorkshire Rider which had been sold by GM Buses between 1986 (Fleetlines) and 1992 (Atlanteans), and also several batches of MCW Metrorider Minibuses from Yorkshire Rider, South Wales Transport and Cardiff Bus, some of these were used to strengthen Greater Manchester area services while others were sent onto Merseyside.
MTL bought Bolton Coachways in Bolton out and was able to keep vehicles there from the St Helens fleet besides gaining local Bolton area work.
GM Buses South's response was to open a depot in Birkenhead and introduce the former Birkenhead Corporation livery onto them as Birkenhead & District and bring in all 17 NCME bodied Fleetlines it had that had come from GM Buses as they were in effect none standard in its main fleet. Later on in registered the 26 and 27 Shield Road Circulars using Y and A plate Atlanteans from Princess Road depot on them which would drive over using the M63 (now M60) and M62 to Liverpool.
I think really what was happening is both operators were losing money in there own area's because the incomers were offering lower fares, so a deal was reached were MTL not to lose face was given routes by GMN that linked Merseyside with Wigan area towns that had been operated by Atherton depot and Wigan depot, while MTL closed there operation in Manchester, sold the Bolton operations and selected vehicles to GMN in recompense. GMS closed Birkenhead and district and GMN its Liverpool and Southport opps, GMS stopped operating the 26 and 27. Off course in the longer term later under First Manchester it bacame possible to close Atherton depot as its mileage and vehicle output had reduced somewhat, as the 34 used significant numbers of buses, also MTL was able to reduce its Liverpool fleet and close sub operations like Fareway and the former Liverbus base at Huyton in the years to come.
I doubt anything like this will happen again, because of the state of play proposed at the moment.
I doubt GMS were losing money in their own area as by then they had nothing much more than money spinning HE ST and PS depots. One memory lapse I have is what date MTL ceased Gtr M'cr ops, and for that matter Continue taken over by GMN. I'm sure, both were at or immediately before the City Centre Bus Strategy was introduced around May 1995.
I think both GM Buses Liverpool and MTL Manchester both ceased operations on the same date. Unsure of exact date but think it was sometime in May 1995. Sadly the agreement between the two companies saw the end of some very well established links in the form of the 34 (Liverpool - Manchester) and 320 (Liverpool - Wigan).
(18/02/2019 20:00)Brickmill Wrote: [ -> ]I doubt GMS were losing money in their own area as by then they had nothing much more than money spinning HE ST and PS depots. One memory lapse I have is what date MTL ceased Gtr M'cr ops, and for that matter Continue taken over by GMN. I'm sure, both were at or immediately before the City Centre Bus Strategy was introduced around May 1995.
GMS's operating territory wasn't all that great, lets not forget every major route had MTL competition on it, also there was numerous other competition on Oxford Road and on the 192 service. GMS buses even made a loss after Stagecoach took over, and I know that because while at university I examined a set of financial figures for the year 1997 which showed a loss them at that time, was told it was down to ongoing necessary fleet renewal and restructuring at that time. If profits were that great why did they not invest in replacing its ageing fleet until after MTL had retreated? 1996 if my memory serves me right?
Incidentally competition ended at the end of May 1995, e.g. around the week before final bank holiday. Which was from Monday 22nd May 1995.
The last through 34 service Manchester to Liverpool and 320 Wigan to Liverpool and vice versa operated on Saturday 20/05/1995. Initially GMN timetables gave times of MTL connecting journeys on a black strip at the top of the timetable but said connections between the two couldn't be guaranteed. At that stage both GMN and GMS were printing its own timetables to the GMN size for commercial journeys on commercial routes. GMPTE was printing the rest.
(19/02/2019 01:42)gilesbus1 Wrote: [ -> ]GMS's operating territory wasn't all that great, lets not forget every major route had MTL competition on it, also there was numerous other competition on Oxford Road and on the 192 service. GMS buses even made a loss after Stagecoach took over, and I know that because while at university I examined a set of financial figures for the year 1997 which showed a loss them at that time, was told it was down to ongoing necessary fleet renewal and restructuring at that time. If profits were that great why did they not invest in replacing its ageing fleet until after MTL had retreated? 1996 if my memory serves me right?
Incidentally competition ended at the end of May 1995, e.g. around the week before final bank holiday. Which was from Monday 22nd May 1995.
The last through 34 service Manchester to Liverpool and 320 Wigan to Liverpool and vice versa operated on Saturday 20/05/1995. Initially GMN timetables gave times of MTL connecting journeys on a black strip at the top of the timetable but said connections between the two couldn't be guaranteed. At that stage both GMN and GMS were printing its own timetables to the GMN size for commercial journeys on commercial routes. GMPTE was printing the rest.
If east Manchester, Wythenshawe (pre Metrolink), Stockport, Tameside (especially the southern half of the borough) etc wasn't great, then where in GM was? I had forgotten about the coincident 192 competition, but I suspect the lack of investment was more to do with paying off the ESOP purchase and choosing the right vehicles to standardise on. Also, MTL may have provided competition, doesn't mean to say they carried many pax. I recall 19yo Atlantean s parked up for 20 minutes plus belching out the equivalent of dozens of Euro6 fumes, but I don't recall any MTL 204s actually carrying anyone.
(19/02/2019 09:05)Brickmill Wrote: [ -> ]If east Manchester, Wythenshawe (pre Metrolink), Stockport, Tameside (especially the southern half of the borough) etc wasn't great, then where in GM was? I had forgotten about the coincident 192 competition, but I suspect the lack of investment was more to do with paying off the ESOP purchase and choosing the right vehicles to standardise on. Also, MTL may have provided competition, doesn't mean to say they carried many pax. I recall 19yo Atlantean s parked up for 20 minutes plus belching out the equivalent of dozens of Euro6 fumes, but I don't recall any MTL 204s actually carrying anyone.
Yep I don't doubt there would be gaps as there were simply too many buses chasing too few passengers, I have seen photographs though of some MTL buses carrying reasonable loads. The other operator I forgot was North Western/Bee Line which by then was part of British Bus and was competing heavily on the Trafford Area services, but by then had started to cut back there network elsewhere in Manchester selling its Rochdale and Oldham opps along with the Miall Street base which GM North then mothballed until Pioneer was taken over. In exchange services between Wigan/Leigh and Warrington passed to North Western/Bee Line who used Leigh Line to operate the one time Leigh Corporation services between Leigh and Warrington, when it first started there was some issues as some journeys failed to operate so Leigh Line was suspended from the route, this then past back to GMN using Minibuses for an extra period of time, I thing something like a month or something but I know Brickmill, you may know exactly what the situation was there. Leigh Line used various Mini's and Leyland Nationals picked up from within the British Bus Group, not just locally, as there was a Maidstone & District National involved, the former Heatons Travel Business as they had, had their operators licence revoked for poor maintenance.
It can't have been that profitable as within twelve months it had been closed down and the former Heatons depot on Holden Road, opposite the ex GMT site had been demolished and sold for housing.
A manager from British Bus had told me they had considered buying the old Marshalls Haulage depot at one time on Holden Road but didn't proceed as it became obvious the site was to be flattened for redevelopment, presume if this had gone ahead it would of also of replaced the North Western depot at Wigan.
I do recall some of the Leigh Line branded Nationals appearing on North Westerns 10A at one point so I presume they ended up in Liverpool.
(19/02/2019 17:50)St Helens Rider Wrote: [ -> ]I do recall some of the Leigh Line branded Nationals appearing on North Westerns 10A at one point so I presume they ended up in Liverpool.
Yep they indeed did, as I remember seeing the Maidstone & District liveried National in Liverpool City Centre the day after Leigh Line had closed.
Guess they used them to replace older vehicles at Bootle depot.